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question to players in advanced and below
#61
i still don't understand the point or outrage about this

inhouse pug group gets created
players join inhouse pug group
players enjoy inhouse pug group
hlpug players join inhouse pug group asking "why dont u just add up to hlpugs"
players express why they enjoy inhouse pug group over hlpugs
"lol you're all retarded and just need to grow some balls and add up to hlpugs"

how do you guys think this is a winning argument, you are completely disregarding the reasons given to you, and then expecting anyone that doesn't already play hlpugs to add up

its an insane line of reasoning

congrats on having a website, if you want more daily active users, try a different method of advertising, cause you're clearly missing the demographic you're targeting
asher#0112
#62
(12-24-2018, 01:04 AM)Gabe ✿ | HLPugs.tf Wrote: It is not possible to change the nature of pugs, fatkids will always exist. Therefore, the only solution is to create a separate mix service, on a different section of the website. A mix will start when 18 players are added to the queue (no classes, just adding up to the next pug). The first 18 players to be queued for the pug will be assigned to random classes on random teams, and then the pug will start. For players remaining in the queue, they will be added to a priority queue in which the next pug will always prioritize picking from. The player waiting the longest will always be the first chosen by the system when a pug starts. If you leave the queue however, you will be removed from the priority queue. Perhaps a grace period of 30-60 minutes stays in case of disconnects, where if a player gets fatkidded and leaves, but comes back into the queue before the grace period ends, they will be placed back into the priority queue.

Thoughts?

dont think the first half is a good idea, but the fatkids system is exactly what should be implemented if you want lower level players to play
#63
@Gabe

Something like that could work well, it's seems like it would be very objective and there's no favoritism. The only issue is the players and if they stick to the playing on the randomly assigned class. Or if they get more competitive and bm other players who aren't strong all-classers. A system like that seems more like the advanced lobbies that tf2center tried so avoiding the issues they had would also be good.

All I want to do in a pug is play comp tf2 with friends or new friends and better learn other classes. It's also enjoyable to hear how other people play and if people are toxic that takes away from the enjoyment. If there was something objective like that on hlpugs.tf I would try it out. I imagine more of the people in lower divs might take a look at hlpugs but I don't think many would stop doing third party pug groups.
#64
If all the silver players added up and didn't fear getting stomped in the plat player pugs then there'd be multiple pugs, but people don't like getting stomped and improving from it so they make inhouses. Also most of the hlpug regulars are annoying to me so that's why I don't add personally in addition to the fact highlander isn't fun for me when I have to put in more than the bare minimum of thought
#65
my experience with hl pugs.tf has been not getting picked, and when I do I get thrown on stupid classes like heavy or something and then people yell at me for not doing well, and then I get a week ban for leaving an unenjoyable experience.
what the hell am i doing here?
#66
TL;DR please I wanna understand what the fuck is going on here.
#67
(12-24-2018, 01:04 AM)Gabe ✿ | HLPugs.tf Wrote: It is not possible to change the nature of pugs, fatkids will always exist. Therefore, the only solution is to create a separate mix service, on a different section of the website. A mix will start when 18 players are added to the queue (no classes, just adding up to the next pug). The first 18 players to be queued for the pug will be assigned to random classes on random teams, and then the pug will start. For players remaining in the queue, they will be added to a priority queue in which the next pug will always prioritize picking from. The player waiting the longest will always be the first chosen by the system when a pug starts. If you leave the queue however, you will be removed from the priority queue. Perhaps a grace period of 30-60 minutes stays in case of disconnects, where if a player gets fatkidded and leaves, but comes back into the queue before the grace period ends, they will be placed back into the priority queue.

Thoughts?

I think you're approaching addressing this issue from the wrong angle entirely; I don't see any case where further systematizing pugs in any way helps alleviate the concerns of those who prefer playing these inhouse games to queuing up on HLPugs. The reason I put together my post detailing my issues with the system was to explain how people seem to consistently have the same issue when queuing up on HLPugs, rather than simply reiterate what everyone else has said. I believe the fundamental reason those people prefer inhouse pugs is because the necessarily human-driven pug system allows for enough leeway regarding both fatkidding and offclassing, so while it doesn't outright solve those issues, it provides a way for them to influence those people hosting the pugs into finding some compromise where everyone can be happy. If you were to try to address those concerns by building it into some kind of system, you will only be creating some other systematic pugging issue for people to complain about next. Burger pugs is already having another internal issue where people are complaining the pugs are lowering in quality due to being too "throwy". I have no opinion on that one way or another, I can only say that because the whole thing is operated by manual human work there is at least more confidence that that issue can be addressed somehow, because pugs have to start somehow.
#68
(12-24-2018, 01:21 AM)s24dog lft 7 class sub Wrote: ...but people don't like getting stomped and improving from it so they make inhouses.

If individuals play a game competitively and do not possess the mindset to improve they are at fault.
#69
(12-24-2018, 01:35 AM)Bowl.knd Wrote:
(12-24-2018, 01:21 AM)s24dog lft 7 class sub Wrote: ...but people don't like getting stomped and improving from it so they make inhouses.

If individuals play a game competitively and do not possess the mindset to improve they are at fault.

I think it's less about people not enjoying getting stomped and more about having a pug where you're not spawn camped or killed by weird situations for 3 rounds the whole time. Or a sniper that a hundred percent carries in a pug when you're on a team that is a pug team with no coordination. I don't know if there are main callers who want to coordinate a team every pug just to walk out of spawn or deal with a sniper that outclasses most of the players. There's wanting to improve and doing so when you have the tool set for it and there's working against a brick wall that you don't have the knowledge or DM yet to do so.

Lower div players who are playing pugs are already looking to improve, they aren't just pubbing and choose to play a competitive format in the downtime between reviews or scrims. People make in-houses when they feel like the player's needs aren't being met or they have friends they want to play with and have fun.
#70
i'm not so sure what's so hard to understand about this question.
hlpugs is not a fun environment. you either get picked on a team that either doesn't try , constantly talks shit to you because you're not playing perfectly, or the pug gets killed before you can even connect to the server. and that's if you get lucky and actually get picked. i have not played many hl pugs, but the ones i have played have never been fun at al, and it has nothing to do with the incredible functions of the website but more to do with the atrociously toxic environment of high level tf2.

and to anyone who says that i don't want to get rolled so i don't play, that's not true. ill get 2 shot by a scout with a scattergun . what i will not do is play a game where i get cleavered and then shortstop pushed into a huntsman arrow. that's not fun. that can't be fun. it's not a learning experience, it's too frustrating to serve as that. i want a game where people actually try and care about the quality of the pugs.

burger pugs is fun. i hosted my own pugs, they were fun. hl pugs has never been fun. i could get everyone in my pug group to add up to hlpugs and we could have a b pug. or i could just host my own where i can ban you dickheads who refuse to show people worse than you the respect of your effort.

the website is fantastic. you assholes are the problem. if you can't see why, that's exactly why i don't want to play with you.
#71
From what I remember back when I used to add up probably around when the site first got launched-ish (I don't now mostly because of lack time and effort due to me balancing classes back then and trying to find a job now as well as dealing with being in a relationship yada yada yada life happens but also a little bit because of the experience I had with the site already), Flare is not totally wrong with the site's very design concept making the whole process of adding up irritating. I do specifically remember pugs dying constantly during the pick ban stages either because someone fucked up a pick as captain, the site having problems, people bailing because they're done waiting, and no one adding to med aside from two people who then proceed to bail because they didn't think they'd be the only meds added. Flare makes a really good point that someone who just wants to play the game irregardless of win or lose would probably rather play inhouse pugs since there's more incentive to start the pugs on time as he said as well as the fact that since it's mostly friend groups there's a lot less bickering over player and map picks. Also a bit more genuinely fun in the down time between pugs since you're hanging out with a big group of friendos, granted that might not be a super big deal since I am aware that there are people who hang out in discord/mumble while waiting for hlpugs, but it's something to maybe give a penny of thought to.

Also, from my stance, the fact that alot of pugs devolve into throwing and bumblefuckery might be a turn off to some of the players who want to seriously improve at the game rare that those players may be. The main idea is that there needs to be a fundamental change in how the site is run by the captains of pugs as well as the very systems in the site statswise and pickwise and I do think Gabe might be on to something with his ideas.

I don't have much of a horse in this race, so look at this as more of an outsider looking in perspective. I could very much be waaaaaaaaaaaay the fuck off in my assumptions here, so grain of salt aplenty. It's been a while since I've hung around that community... Sad
Pyro mains :/
#72
This is why Hostile Hamster left...
succ me 
#73
I wrote a far more cohesive essasy to bowl instead, read that one.
IM ETERNALLY PISSED
#74
I don't see why this is an argument. In-house pugs have existed for far longer than HLPugs.tf. They're both super rad ways to getting to play TF2 with other competitive players and both of them have their place in this world. Let people play what they want and leave it at that, there is no major issue right now. I don't see why the people that play A-pugs want other people to join HLPugs.tf to start some B-pugs if those same pugs are literally already being played but in an in-house pug environment, especially since the majority of people that currently use HLPugs.tf would never have to play in B-pugs.
#75
You don't have to be invite to get picked in pugs lol, me and other people who played advanced S1 do get picked...
succ me 
#76
you guys don't need to play with the regulars you don't like if you just stack the site yourself,
Just use the site to your own advantage.
If the 18-30 people that join the discord an inhouse is hosted in, added up to hlpugs and just used it as an easier method of picking players and maps there is no problems.
its not a matter of being scared, the skill level or the general attitude of the normal players.
Its just a tool one can use and take advantage of.
#77
The pugging scene for TF2 is an over-saturated market. In 6v6, you have PugChamp, TF2PL (Faceit), and a dozen of in-house pug groups. The problem with in-house pug groups is that it just further fragments the competitive community into smaller and smaller groups. This does not help with how small the competitive scene is in terms of player numbers. If everyone used the same platform(s), then there would simply be more pugs going on during the day, because there would be simply more players added up -- rather than splitting up the already dwindling numbers into more groups.

The history of highlander pugs is interesting. Back around 2012, players use IRCs for tf2.mix.nahl and tf2.pug.nahl, which were extremely popular and was what everyone in the league used to just play highlander outside of your normal scrimmages and matches. Ever since that died out (along with TF2Lobby), we were left with TF2Center which sacrifices a lot of the quality aspects of a match for the convenience of just getting a match started.

In between then and HLPugs.tf, you had a bunch of private in-house highlander pug groups that you needed to know someone or have the experience to even invited into the group. If you didn't have any networking or friends, your chances of ever playing in the high leveled in-house pug groups were zero to none. I didn't have that luxury, so that was one of the reasons why I really tried to push and help this site in its development cycle.

It was not until roughly over 5 years later that we released HLPugs.tf, which was to help simulate what the IRCs did back in the day in a more streamlined way on a site that anyone with a browser could figure out how to use. The idea was to allow players to use an open captain-draft system where anyone can add up and play.

I understand the frustration that a lot of lower division players may feel about not getting picked and it's not unwarranted. I am also not denying the fact that a lot of players that use our platform can just be complete assholes and disregard the rules. The highlander community is not easy to deal with, because it's already a niche community that is further broken up into smaller and smaller groups that try to one up each other.

We had already plans of working on a mix system specifically for lower division players (even considering using the UGC API back when we were still playing UGC) to restrict platinum players from adding up to that second site. There was just a lot of lack of motivation from us on the development-side as well as just a lot of real life and other things getting in the way (for me it was trying to create RGL.gg Highlander within the span of less than week) as well as just a variety of other factors. The fact is that the competitive community of TF2 is completely grass-roots and everything we do to help grow it and try to make it more "legitimate" is completely all because we care about the game and are willing to use up our free time to do so.

(12-24-2018, 02:04 AM)blue99 Wrote: This something I have been telling Exa for a year now, and he cant understand it. that the reason ppl dont play HL pugs is because they dont get picked, and its the most elitist circle jerk of a website, in which if you dont have atleast 3 seasons in plat you will not get picked unless ur lucky or play medic. So players dont bother, the way to fix this is to have a seperate room for divisions, so players can feel that they bellaong and play and spend time with ppl they know and play with. This will cause many players, to start to play, because they will feel comfortable on the website. But the truth is Exa doesnt want to expand there website to not only have a more involved playerbase, and a more skilled one because lower level players will finally have a real place to practice HL, and by lower level I mean anyone who isnt invite. I made a group a long time ago, that tried to encourage silver players to play by getting them to add up at once, EXA liked the idea because he added me for it lol, but it didnt work because people are still not comfortable there. But im an ADVANCED player what do I know. Ima edit the thread to say this, I dont blame HLpug staples for picking ppl they know. So you shouldnt blame other players for wanting to play with ppl they know.

I am very confused why you are putting words into my mouth.

First off, you do not need "at least 3 seasons in plat" to get picked, but that is beside the point.  Anyway, creating "separate room for divisions" only serves to isolate players into smaller groups. If you look at it like a bell curve, players that are in the opposite spectrums (e.g. Invite players) would have less and less pugs, whereas players that are in Open or are in a lower division would be able to play much more PUGs due to the higher player base that exists in the lower divisions. That's a fact. All this would really do is force Invite players to eventually make their own in-house pug group, which only serves to further fragment where people play highlander pugs. The highlander pugging scene has always been very small in retrospect to the actual player numbers that play in an actual league. It's why you must think through how you want to approach something that does not have any clear and obvious ways to fix.
#78
(12-24-2018, 02:17 AM)pablo Wrote: you guys don't need to play with the regulars you don't like if you just stack the site yourself,
Just use the site to your own advantage.
If the 18-30 people that join the discord an inhouse is hosted in, added up to hlpugs and just used it as an easier method of picking players and maps there is no problems.
its not a matter of being scared, the skill level or the general attitude of the normal players.
Its just a tool one can use and take advantage of.

Okay then what is even the point of getting the members of an in-house pug that they are familiar with to add to a website to play the exact same pugs that are literally already being played? You even said that they wouldn't have to play with the HLPugs regulars if they all just stacked the site for B-pugs, so it's legit the exact same thing that's already being played.
#79
(12-24-2018, 02:17 AM)pablo Wrote: Its just a tool one can use and take advantage of.

Yes I agree, Bowl was a below average heavy until recently and now he destroys
#80
(12-23-2018, 05:48 PM)Bowl.knd Wrote: Players that participate in any other pug group other than a website that was in development for several months are the only reason to the issue that there are not multiple pugs ongoing. If you do not get picked in the primary pug, the remainder of the players hold the capability to start a secondary pug due to the fact that 3 servers are provided by na.hlpugs.tf. If you do not like the players in a pug, you again possess the capability to mute/block them.

bowl I hear this all the time, but you have to understand how people work. If peoples first experience is not getting picked, they wont go to that website again, so your gonna end up with a lot of people being turned off to your website because It is impossible to get in a pug if you aren't known in Invite elitist circles. In order to fill a 2nd pug you need people to actually add up at the same time. But most people dont bother because there aren't enough new players at a time. So you end up with a closed group. Your expecting people to put effort into just following the system that you designed for yourself, when in reality people are lazy and if they arent held by the hand and feel comfortable they wont bother when there are inhouse options available. Im going to state this again in an actual essay because the upper thread was just me rambling. In order for lower levels to start playing you need to start multiple pugs at a time, start with 2 at a time, and make adv leaders team captains, as they will pick players they know. When lower levels start seeing captains they recognize and actually get picked you have expanded the userbase. Because they see players they recognize from the start. And word will spread and you will get more people. Because for now what people see is just the KND roster with some Apolodosh players and they feel as if they arent welcome and leave. Again I do not care if I get owned by better players, I can take criticism. I care whether or not I actually get the chance to improve.

(12-24-2018, 02:22 AM)exa_ | hl.rgl.gg Wrote: The pugging scene for TF2 is an over-saturated market. In 6v6, you have PugChamp, TF2PL (Faceit), and a dozen of in-house pug groups. The problem with in-house pug groups is that it just further fragments the competitive community into smaller and smaller groups. This does not help with how small the competitive scene is in terms of player numbers. If everyone used the same platform(s), then there would simply be more pugs going on during the day, because there would be simply more players added up -- rather than splitting up the already dwindling numbers into more groups.

The history of highlander pugs is interesting. Back around 2012, players use IRCs for tf2.mix.nahl and tf2.pug.nahl, which were extremely popular and was what everyone in the league used to just play highlander outside of your normal scrimmages and matches. Ever since that died out (along with TF2Lobby), we were left with TF2Center which sacrifices a lot of the quality aspects of a match for the convenience of just getting a match started.

In between then and HLPugs.tf, you had a bunch of private in-house highlander pug groups that you needed to know someone or have the experience to even invited into the group. If you didn't have any networking or friends, your chances of ever playing in the high leveled in-house pug groups were zero to none. I didn't have that luxury, so that was one of the reasons why I really tried to push and help this site in its development cycle.

It was not until roughly over 5 years later that we released HLPugs.tf, which was to help simulate what the IRCs did back in the day in a more streamlined way on a site that anyone with a browser could figure out how to use. The idea was to allow players to use an open captain-draft system where anyone can add up and play.

I understand the frustration that a lot of lower division players may feel about not getting picked and it's not unwarranted. I am also not denying the fact that a lot of players that use our platform can just be complete assholes and disregard the rules. The highlander community is not easy to deal with, because it's already a niche community that is further broken up into smaller and smaller groups that try to one up each other.

We had already plans of working on a mix system specifically for lower division players (even considering using the UGC API back when we were still playing UGC) to restrict platinum players from adding up to that second site. There was just a lot of lack of motivation from us on the development-side as well as just a lot of real life and other things getting in the way (for me it was trying to create RGL.gg Highlander within the span of less than week) as well as just a variety of other factors. The fact is that the competitive community of TF2 is completely grass-roots and everything we do to help grow it and try to make it more "legitimate" is completely all because we care about the game and are willing to use up our free time to do so.

(12-24-2018, 02:04 AM)blue99 Wrote: This something I have been telling Exa for a year now, and he cant understand it. that the reason ppl dont play HL pugs is because they dont get picked, and its the most elitist circle jerk of a website, in which if you dont have atleast 3 seasons in plat you will not get picked unless ur lucky or play medic. So players dont bother, the way to fix this is to have a seperate room for divisions, so players can feel that they bellaong and play and spend time with ppl they know and play with. This will cause many players, to start to play, because they will feel comfortable on the website. But the truth is Exa doesnt want to expand there website to not only have a more involved playerbase, and a more skilled one because lower level players will finally have a real place to practice HL, and by lower level I mean anyone who isnt invite. I made a group a long time ago, that tried to encourage silver players to play by getting them to add up at once, EXA liked the idea because he added me for it lol, but it didnt work because people are still not comfortable there. But im an ADVANCED player what do I know. Ima edit the thread to say this, I dont blame HLpug staples for picking ppl they know. So you shouldnt blame other players for wanting to play with ppl they know.

I am very confused why you are putting words into my mouth.

First off, you do not need "at least 3 seasons in plat" to get picked, but that is beside the point.  Anyway, creating "separate room for divisions" only serves to isolate players into smaller groups. If you look at it like a bell curve, players that are in the opposite spectrums (e.g. Invite players) would have less and less pugs, whereas players that are in Open or are in a lower division would be able to play much more PUGs due to the higher player base that exists in the lower divisions. That's a fact. All this would really do is force Invite players to eventually make their own in-house pug group, which only serves to further fragment where people play highlander pugs. The highlander pugging scene has always been very small in retrospect to the actual player numbers that play in an actual league. It's why you must think through how you want to approach something that does not have any clear and obvious ways to fix.

I wrote a bit of a stronger essay because this one was poorly worded, you are wrong, by dividing pugs you are making people that usually dont get picked think they have a chance, since its lead by players they know. The people that usuallly add up to HLpugs will still add up to the first pug, it literally wont affect anything. If you want more people to play HLpugs you need to put an actual effort into bringing people in. And the way to do that is by having familiar players who they know will pick them lead a seperate pug. Again, invite will still have its own invite pug on there own, they have no interest to play in lower div pugs. And I get that after a first pug is formed a 2nd one follows. But for now all HLpugs is is its a glorified discord channel that only has like 20 regulars. If you want to be the premier HL pugsite. Your going to have to put actual effort to get newer players to join and not just sit around and say "lol just if you all add up at the same time it will work". ( I wasn't saying that you say this, but this is the popular sentiment in HLpugs, as I see bowl and pablo saying this.)

EDIT: I missed the first part before the quote and read only after the quote, I personally do not care that people are assholes in hlpugs, I deal with that shit all the time. I just want to play. And the fact that other people dont add up because of that is frustrating. But that's just the way people are, and it's up to you guys to adress that. What a lot of people are saying that are just telling people to get over it is very similar to how Wikipedia tries to get people to donate. Where they say "if everyone give us 3 dollars we can operate for free for a decade". Its a reasonable request, 3 dollars isnt much. But is it reasonable to assume that everyone who reads that will actually donate 3 dollars a month. Is it really reasonable to assume that people are just gonna add up to HLpugs at the same time despite the first time they played they never get picked? I have reached the point where I am too good to play my main in tf2center and most inhouse discord pugs (lowkey if u know somewhere I can actually play pootis HMU). I genuinely want an enviroment to be made where I can actually improve in. Please make it so. As long as i get to play nonrobots i am happy.
IM ETERNALLY PISSED


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