• 7 Vote(s) - 2.86 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
question to players in advanced and below
(12-24-2018, 04:14 AM)blue99 Wrote: I cant believe in that phd earner that ypu completely missed the point to everything I have tried to say. First off I will never be picked in HLpugs, not in a long time simply because of my reputation that i earned in steel and was kept alive to this very day, if i get denied IM rings for being "bad" my clout aint very strong. But thats irrelevent to my actual point. You are describing a perfect system, a system where everyone simply keeps adding up, and where younger players perfectly understand what it takes to get better. I will keep trying sure, but not everyone is a glaistig or doc, or like you. Most people will do what you consider baffling, but they can still be great if catered too. You are expecting a perfect system that few are willing to see through, is it really that hard to add a coinsiding pug for adv players. This is literally me trying to find a way to play pootis consistently LMAO. But yea, telling ppl to just keep trying is stupid if your goal is to having a thriving highlander community where rveryone can improve, in any div. This is less me complaining about hLpugs and more highlander as a whole. Noone tries to make this more of an open and welcoming community, while i fought through a ton of toxicity and care less about it now i see mentally weaker people let that get them down. One of the players i know who is still in open because he is just shit on. I found my way onto teams by building my own teams to play on because noone would ask me to tryout. If i had not put the massive ammount of work i most likely would still be an open level player. I dont want to sound like a bitch because im not. I actually agree with you alto, if you want to be a good player its not handed to you, ill still keep adding up despite the fact that the only pug i played was last year lol. But that aint most people, and its unrealistic to believe that the system as it is now will foster better players. I mentor a lot of open teams and hang around some discords where people are interested in trying comp. (Ill edit a text log in once i get on my pc). This is how most young players act. This is most people. And i think neither exa nor anyone with power undersrands that, if you want a community, if you want people to even be interested in improving you need to put the effort in. Start by making more newbie mixes sponsored by rgl, add in div seperation in hlpugs so instead the first thing young players see is bo4r and bowl, they see hey, theres something i can do, and eventually there love for the game will turn into what you want it to be. Yes alto, it is unreasonable for every young player to suddenly have convictions as tough as diamonds and grind hlpugs. Whew that was a lot longer then it shouldve been. GL to whoever made it to the end lol

alto isnt expecting everyone to think the way he wants, he is saying what he believes is the way to improve on the issues this community is facing. he is hoping that he will get through to some people, and hes at least succeeded in convincing me. i am now going to start adding up to hlpugs more than i have in the past, purely because of this thread, and him talking about people like doc theo. the people he is getting through to are the ones that are committed to improving, and that is his target audience.the ones that arent willing to get shat on by better players are not the future of highlander(this applies to people around silver level, not open players, open players should probably stick to tf2center until they reach around im/main)
(12-24-2018, 04:27 AM)saturation Wrote: alto isnt expecting everyone to think the way he wants, he is saying what he believes is the way to improve on the issues this community is facing. he is hoping that he will get through to some people, and hes at least succeeded in convincing me. i am now going to start adding up to hlpugs more than i have in the past, purely because of this thread, and him talking about people like doc theo. the people he is getting through to are the ones that are committed to improving, and that is his target audience.the ones that arent willing to get shat on by better players are not the future of highlander(this applies to people around silver level, not open players, open players should probably stick to tf2center until they reach around im/main)

I aint denying that, pim gonna start adding up too. But I think HL should be more succesful then it is, and the reason why i think it isnt is because people arent getting through to the people at the bottom. Ive already wrote it in my essay. Any league is like a pyramid. While at the invite advanced levels competition is strong, open and IM and main is omega aids, and a weak foundation will eventually lead to the collapse of the league, tf2 player numvers are similar to what it was years ago, yet the community keeps on shrinking and shrinking because players stopped caring about ehat goes on in those divisions. Bro i feel like a movie character saying that but u boys are out of touch.

HlPuGs could be more then just a pug site, i remember an open player asked why there are no discord pugs in highlander like in prolander. Someone unironically replied HLpugs already exists, so at the end you have to ask, do I want to be a closed community, or do i want to expand and retain as much of the base as i can. And just maybe highlander will be what it once was once again.

I just realized i spent 2 hours on this and im gonna go have a drink and rethink my priorities.
Edit how do i stop quoting everything soon this one thread is gonna take up 10 pages.
IM ETERNALLY PISSED
@blue
-you will be picked eventually even if its only because there are only 18 people added, or if you add to med there aren't enough captains willing to take that med L frequently enough to fatkid you forever
-adding up requires such little effort that if its too much work then that player will never be great, even if catered to. i haven't gone back and checked all of the names but there is a very clear historical divide between the players saying that the 'invite illuminati' are keeping them out of pugs and the players that didn't give a shit and let their drill be the ones that pierced the heavens.
-no one can nor should improve without effort. there are players in this thread that have not had any meaningful improvement for seasons upon seasons even if they've technically 'climbed' ranks due to skill requirements being lowered. you're too naive if you think we're going to create a 'thriving highlander community' out of these actual wasteyutes that see leaving up hlpugs in another tab while they do other things as some kind of herculean effort.
-people that have the drive to be the best will end up there eventually. i'm not doubting that newbie mixes and the like could help, but what's the effort vs. reward? it's entirely possible that i'm out of touch and ignorant of a mass of potential newcomers to the scene, but I have a feeling they should've found their way in by now.
-how is adding up to pugs and seeing bowl and bo4r a bad thing? do you know how many league players would kill to have the chance to play with doublelift? do you know how many ow players would commit crimes against women and minorities to play with muma or xQc or something? one of the absolute coolest things about comp tf2 is that you can see and interact with the stars on a daily basis. way back in the day the 2-3am `bfl lobbies were the hypest things because you, as a nameless steel player, could play and talk with jordan and squid and enigma and all these beasts and feel like you were in it. I can't speak for now, but most of the players who reached plat back when it meant something all had similar experiences. you can't take people who don't want to be good and make them good. there's not enough resources in the scene to do that. flare said in the discord something along the lines of 'i want to play in invite pugs, but i don't want it /that/ much', referring to just staying added until he eventually got picked.

Quote:Yes alto, it is unreasonable for every young player to suddenly have convictions as tough as diamonds and grind hlpugs.

if you think adding up to hlpugs and then beating off to anime until you hear the ready up sound qualifies as 'convictions tough as diamonds' then your life prospects are poor. hlpugs aren't some hellish training regiment where after getting verbally abused for 8 months, condensed in a 90 second training montage to eye of the tiger, you suddenly come out an invite player. the pugs are the reward, and when the site's running at an ideal level they are entertaining even if you do poorly. of course, that implies a basic level of social skills and the ability to remove your attitude from the events occurring in the game. you say your reputation is awful and while reading some of your posts I can see that being true, but I guarantee you a large chunk of invite players have no idea who the fuck you are, because I certainly don't. do I currently dislike you enough to go through playing pug medic if i'm captain and you're my option? honestly no, and if you're a cool guy in mumble you'll keep getting picked on med until enough people are alright with you that they'll pick you on heavy.
(12-24-2018, 02:26 AM)blue99 Wrote: I wrote a bit of a stronger essay because this one was poorly worded, you are wrong, by dividing pugs you are making people that usually dont get picked think they have a chance, since its lead by players they know. The people that usuallly add up to HLpugs will still add up to the first pug, it literally wont affect anything. If you want more people to play HLpugs you need to put an actual effort into bringing people in. And the way to do that is by having familiar players who they know will pick them lead a seperate pug. Again, invite will still have its own invite pug on there own, they have no interest to play in lower div pugs. And I get that after a first pug is formed a 2nd one follows. But for now all HLpugs is is its a glorified discord channel that only has like 20 regulars. If you want to be the premier HL pugsite. Your going to have to put actual effort to get newer players to join and not just sit around and say "lol just if you all add up at the same time it will work". ( I wasn't saying that you say this, but this is the popular sentiment in HLpugs, as I see bowl and pablo saying this.)

EDIT: I missed the first part before the quote and read only after the quote, I personally do not care that people are assholes in hlpugs, I deal with that shit all the time. I just want to play. And the fact that other people dont add up because of that is frustrating. But that's just the way people are, and it's up to you guys to adress that. What a lot of people are saying that are just telling people to get over it is very similar to how Wikipedia tries to get people to donate. Where they say "if everyone give us 3 dollars we can operate for free for a decade". Its a reasonable request, 3 dollars isnt much. But is it reasonable to assume that everyone who reads that will actually donate 3 dollars a month. Is it really reasonable to assume that people are just gonna add up to HLpugs at the same time despite the first time they played they never get picked? I have reached the point where I am too good to play my main in tf2center and most inhouse discord pugs (lowkey if u know somewhere I can actually play pootis HMU). I genuinely want an enviroment to be made where I can actually improve in. Please make it so. As long as i get to play nonrobots i am happy.

Except it will? There a bunch of logistical issues that you must understand with highlander and pugging. It takes 18 players to start one match and an even smaller percentage of players that play highlander in a league who also pug. Separating players into different divisions will just make the initial setup for the actual draft take even longer depending on which division that you are in. Not every Invite HL player plays pugs. The reason pugs can start is because you have players from multiple other divisions that are able to fill the remaining roles necessary. If you look at TF2PL, they used to have multiple divisions depending on the levels. If you were in Amateur, you were able to play pugs much more often than someone who was in Advanced (Invite Division pugs never started for several reasons). It got to a point where ranking up the ladder was counter-intuitive, because you would be just entering a division where no one was pugging in. This led to players alting. You must also understand that sandbagging has and will always be an issue if you introduce a division system, which was a problem in TF2PL as well. Now TF2PL only has a Beginner and Open division. Keep in mind that this is for 6v6, which is supposed to be logistically much easier to setup and have pugs be made than highlander. If it didn't work out for them, what makes you think it will work for highlander which has a very dwindling highlander pugging scene?

I'm fine with creating a separate site for lower division players, but adding multiple divisions is only going to cause players to be more and more fragmented. You also must figure out how to deal with progression (e.g. a player staying in their own "pugging division" and intentionally sandbagging and not getting moved up). There needs to be a gradual and straight-forward progression system.

Quote:. This is how most young players act. This is most people. Most players find finding a team to complex. And i think neither exa nor anyone with power undersrands that, if you want a community, if you want people to even be interested in improving you need to put the effort in. Start by making more newbie mixes sponsored by rgl, add in div seperation in hlpugs so instead the first thing young players see is bo4r and bowl, they see hey, theres something i can do, and eventually there love for the game will turn into what you want it to be. Yes alto, it is unreasonable for every young player to suddenly have convictions as tough as diamonds and grind hlpugs. Whew that was a lot longer then it shouldve been. GL to whoever made it to the end lol

Seriously, what is your problem with just name dropping me and saying something completely false? I have done more to try to grow and make highlander bigger than what it was than you have complaining to me for the past several months about how your idea wasn't used for X thing. You need to understand that I try to look at every feedback, yes, but that I also have a normal life that extends past trying to not only play on a team every weekend, but also manage multiple .tf platforms, study full-time at school, and also have a life past TF2 that I'm trying to balance with on a daily basis.

If you seriously want to come and help with a RGL event such as newbie mixes, then DM me, and I can talk about how you can help.
can someone tell me what each essay says in summary
(12-24-2018, 04:57 AM) pid=\1594' Wrote:Seriously, what is your problem with just name dropping me and saying something completely false? I have done more to try to grow and make highlander bigger than what it was than you have complaining to me for the past several months about how your idea wasn't used for X thing. You need to understand that I try to look at every feedback, yes, but that I also have a normal life that extends past trying to not only play on a team every weekend, but also manage multiple .tf platforms, study full-time at school, and also have a life past TF2 that I'm trying to balance with on a daily basis.

If you seriously want to come and help with a RGL event such as newbie mixes, then DM me, and I can talk about how you can help.
I do not want to be overly apolegetic but i was wrong to do that, The ammount of work u put into this league and everything in general is mountains, and i actually havent done shit lmao i just do some random shit in this league and im just a bystander. I should be more careful on what i say. But yea what kind of glue was i sniffing writing with that kind of level of self importance. Bro if i pissed you off dont worry, im not even in a relevent division.

Pretty much everyrhing i requested is my opinion, me straight up saying your wrong is criiiiinge considering my use of hlpugs is limited and im like a little baby experience wise compared to some here. Ill take the L on this one, i went way over my head
IM ETERNALLY PISSED
(12-24-2018, 05:42 AM)blue99 Wrote:
(12-24-2018, 04:57 AM) pid=\1594' Wrote:Seriously, what is your problem with just name dropping me and saying something completely false? I have done more to try to grow and make highlander bigger than what it was than you have complaining to me for the past several months about how your idea wasn't used for X thing. You need to understand that I try to look at every feedback, yes, but that I also have a normal life that extends past trying to not only play on a team every weekend, but also manage multiple .tf platforms, study full-time at school, and also have a life past TF2 that I'm trying to balance with on a daily basis.

If you seriously want to come and help with a RGL event such as newbie mixes, then DM me, and I can talk about how you can help.
I do not want to be overly apolegetic but i was wrong to do that, The ammount of work u put into this league and everything in general is mountains, and i actually havent done shit lmao i just do some random shit in this league and im just a bystander. I should be more careful on what i say. But yea what kind of glue was i sniffing writing with that kind of level of self importance. Bro if i pissed you off dont worry, im not even in a relevent division.

I am going to jump on this here and say that most people really dont understand how shitty this community is towards those who put effort into it. Very few people are willing to even try and help the community, and maybe 3 are willing to go out and get those few willing together to do something better. exa_ is a god and you should all fear him for his bad words have already killed the forums once, pray he doesnt kill it again.
If any of the lower level players want to captain lower level pugs but lack the sufficient amount of pugs to do so, ping me or another admin in Discord or DM on these forums and they will probably give you captain privileges. As long as you try to pick balanced teams, don't try and captain against players way better than you, and ignore the peanut gallery of players in the HLPugs chat then there shouldn't be any issues.

(12-24-2018, 03:38 AM)Alto Wrote: removing captain elo was imo the worst thing the site's done since launch

Captain elo only works if everyone has a stake in the pug. I know one of the counter arguments is "Only pick the players that try super hard" but there are certain players who are S tier picks when they try and F tier picks when they don't and it's so aggravating to guess their current mood. It's not even map dependent either -- these certain players troll and try on any map and gamemode type, it just feels like a coin flip when they're trying and when they're not. It's impossible to moderate too because they can soft throw (feeding relentlessly, missing on purpose, etc.) and you have to err on the side of caution because they could be having a bad game.

I don't really pug anymore for personal reasons (the logs of pugs recently have led me to believe that I'm not missing that much) but the idea I had to fix the site and make it more accessible are automated anti fatkid rules. If you get fatkidded in a pug, then you get "priority" which is denoted by a symbol or whatever next to the player name that stays there until you unadd or get picked. The captains must pick people with priority before they can pick anyone else. This probably will lead to toxic comments towards these priority pick players but as people said before, mute the people who are overtly mean to you. I think forcing to pick an unknown Main/Advanced player on a power class when there are better options available is bad for the site (which is short-term) but in my opinion it's better for the longevity of this game mode.

These anti fat kid rules would stop players from saying "I'm good enough to play in these pugs but no one knows me".


edit:
on an unrelated note PLEASE STOP USING DISCORD AS VOIP FOR THESE INHOUSE PUGS PLEASE I BEG OF U
i had to leave my casual because i had 4 pages of essays to read

i suppose at the end of the day it comes down to whatever you + 17 friends wanna use

also duck stop posting random garbage to up your post count i hate you
plug walk
(12-24-2018, 04:46 AM)Alto Wrote: @blue
-you will be picked eventually even if its only because there are only 18 people added, or if you add to med there aren't enough captains willing to take that med L frequently enough to fatkid you forever
-adding up requires such little effort that if its too much work then that player will never be great, even if catered to. i haven't gone back and checked all of the names but there is a very clear historical divide between the players saying that the 'invite illuminati' are keeping them out of pugs and the players that didn't give a shit and let their drill be the ones that pierced the heavens.
-no one can nor should improve without effort.  there are players in this thread that have not had any meaningful improvement for seasons upon seasons even if they've technically 'climbed' ranks due to skill requirements being lowered. you're too naive if you think we're going to create a 'thriving highlander community' out of these actual wasteyutes that see leaving up hlpugs in another tab while they do other things as some kind of herculean effort.
-people that have the drive to be the best will end up there eventually. i'm not doubting that newbie mixes and the like could help, but what's the effort vs. reward? it's entirely possible that i'm out of touch and ignorant of a mass of potential newcomers to the scene, but I have a feeling they should've found their way in by now.
-how is adding up to pugs and seeing bowl and bo4r a bad thing? do you know how many league players would kill to have the chance to play with doublelift? do you know how many ow players would commit crimes against women and minorities to play with muma or xQc or something? one of the absolute coolest things about comp tf2 is that you can see and interact with the stars on a daily basis. way back in the day the 2-3am `bfl lobbies were the hypest things because you, as a nameless steel player, could play and talk with jordan and squid and enigma and all these beasts and feel like you were in it. I can't speak for now, but most of the players who reached plat back when it meant something all had similar experiences. you can't take people who don't want to be good and make them good. there's not enough resources in the scene to do that. flare said in the discord something along the lines of 'i want to play in invite pugs, but i don't want it /that/ much', referring to just staying added until he eventually got picked.

Quote:Yes alto, it is unreasonable for every young player to suddenly have convictions as tough as diamonds and grind hlpugs.

if you think adding up to hlpugs and then beating off to anime until you hear the ready up sound qualifies as 'convictions tough as diamonds' then your life prospects are poor. hlpugs aren't some hellish training regiment where after getting verbally abused for 8 months, condensed in a 90 second training montage to eye of the tiger, you suddenly come out an invite player. the pugs are the reward, and when the site's running at an ideal level they are entertaining even if you do poorly. of course, that implies a basic level of social skills and the ability to remove your attitude from the events occurring in the game. you say your reputation is awful and while reading some of your posts I can see that being true, but I guarantee you a large chunk of invite players have no idea who the fuck you are, because I certainly don't. do I currently dislike you enough to go through playing pug medic if i'm captain and you're my option? honestly no, and if you're a cool guy in mumble you'll keep getting picked on med until enough people are alright with you that they'll pick you on heavy.

http://logs.tf/2182662#76561198126153397 and what an amazing reward the pug is...
don't let one bad apple ruin the bunch
i think the solution here is ban bowlofmayo, because he is too good
plug walk
You guys should honestly stop taking jabs at each other and instead actually try hlpugs. Get everyone from burger pugs to add up and let's see how it goes. It is totally possibly to have 2 or maybe 3 pugs going at a time.
play the website, it's not hard. If you dont get picked in the main pug, you'll more than likely play with the people that you normally play with, in those in-house pugs that you guys host.
I think it's very clear that the best solution here is fatkid rules. I, as well as many other players around main and advanced, will start adding up, because as alto said, it takes 2 seconds to add up, and now I know that even if I don't get picked to the first put, I'll be able to play the next one.
If people complain about fatkids ruining the integrity of the pugs, their whole argument goes out the window, and it becomes obvious that they only want to use lower level puggers to make pugs start more often, and not so they can improve or whatever else you guys are saying
My two cents:

If you want to use the site, use it. If you don't want to use the site, don't use it. I'm gonna go ahead and just speak my piece after speedily skim reading the previous 7 pages of text, sorry if I regurgitate anything someone has said previously in the thread.

I feel like a LOT of the people complaining about not being picked in or having the opportunity to play in A/B Pugs haven't really tried giving the site a proper go around with multiple people in the IM-Advanced division added up. When I've added or looked to see who was added when the "17/18 ADDED" ping rolls around, I'll see maybe 1-2 people added up with IM-Advanced experience. Never more than that though, which is super upsetting and is the biggest issue to me.

I feel like there is a BIGGER EFFORT being made by players in these skill levels to NOT add up to hlpugs and instead erect in-house pugs. Why you would rather take this approach than use a site that had a TON of man hours put into it for players of all skill levels to use baffles me. I'm left wondering what would happen if these players who make 2-3 branching in-houses due to some drama or something in the initial one made the realization that using hlpugs is just an easier, more readily available option and all it takes to get a B/C pug going is talking to the same people you would invite to your in-houses to add up and play.

The great thing about adding up is sometimes you get an opportunity to play and interact with players WAY better than you and if you go into a pug where everyone is better than you with a healthy mindset, desire to learn, and try your best, YOU WILL GET BETTER. Yes, if you mess something up badly you're going to get told so. If you react poorly to that and don't learn from that mistake you probably won't be picked again in higher level pugs for a while. If you're fun to be around in mumble and people like your attitude, you will get more chances to play and people might look past some minor flaws you have.

Pretty much sums up how I feel about the whole thing. I don't pug too often, but enough to understand where both sides are coming from. I really hope the folks who are dragging their feet about trying to add up give the site another go with friends and try to get B/C pugs going. I promise that if the lower division community keeps making in-houses, you will have around 4-5 HL groups fighting for 18 players on 9 different classes each and that is the fastest way to kill any future community project involving a pug system guaranteed.

Thank you for reading my nerd essay and happy holidays.
If pugs are already happening I don't see why the means in which it is happening/setup has any relevancy.
https://imgur.com/a/rUMAy7g


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
   
plug walk
(12-24-2018, 02:04 PM)witness Wrote: The great thing about adding up is sometimes you get an opportunity to play and interact with players WAY better than you and if you go into a pug where everyone is better than you with a healthy mindset, desire to learn, and try your best, YOU WILL GET BETTER. 

i totally agree with this statement. the issue is that you need to end up in that situation. what actually happens to me is there are players WAY better than me on the enemy team shitting on me with joke weapons or strategies (because they are way better than me) and people on my team either flat out talking shit to me or joking with their friends about it and its obvious that theyre insulting me. i legitimately have no problems with using the website functionally, but i really really really dont want to play the shitty pugs that take place. i would rather just play with my friends, who i know will be kind and i am kind of middle of the road of skill in. 

if burger pugs had a system like hlpugs, that would be incredible, but it doesnt, so we are left with either adding to hlpugs and possibly getting into the notoriously shitty a pug, or we could just use discord and get picked on the b pug we wanted to play in anyway. 

that is why people do not use hlpugs. anyone who is using the i dont get picked excuse is a fucking clown and isnt the problem. the people you actually want to play the pugs dont want to play because of the terrible pugs that those players create. i dont want to play a pug with anyone who is banned from burger pugs, and basically everyone on that list is a hlpugs regular.
(12-24-2018, 01:58 PM)saturation Wrote: If people complain about fatkids ruining the integrity of the pugs, their whole argument goes out the window, and it becomes obvious that they only want to use lower level puggers to make pugs start more often, and not so they can improve or whatever else you guys are saying

tbh i used to have that opinion because the original aim of the site was for high level pugs for higher-level players to be able to practice. the 'cost of admission' for lower-div players is being a body to help the pug going, which isn't even a cost since they got to participate. last night gave me the opportunity to help sort a lot of my thoughts out, and I think implementing a fatkid system that didn't include demo/sniper/maybe scout as 'fatkiddable' classes would be 100% alright. it'd be unfortunate for players who main those classes, but at the same time those 2/3 classes are most often the backbones of pug teams and being forced to pick open/im players on those classes against high adv/invite players WILL lead to pugs being awful. everything else is fair game.


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)