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RGL Grievances and Proposed Solutions
#1
I am creating this thread as a relatively concise discussion of what I have noticed hurts RGL as a league AND what could potentially be done to address the issues brought up, that latter of which many threads of this manner fail to provide. This is by no means attempting to be a comprehensive list of issues and solutions, just notable ones that kill my enthusiasm as a committed competitive TF2 player. I will now do my best to format this in an intuitive way.

League Management
This is by no means an attack on the many hardworking volunteer admins, however there are a few admins who are totally unresponsive or just totally incapable of doing their job as an admin. This not only hurts the experience of players attempting to resolve issues with said admins, but it also bogs down the responsive admins who people need to fall back on anyway. As a hypothetical example (I'm not referring to any real admins here): if an open player gets no response from the open admin and has to go straight to a head admin anyway, why even have the open admin? A real example of this is when I reported a player who had been stalking me and harassing me for over a month (with documented screenshots), and my division's admin replied "Hater's gonna hate, just block him", even after I had shown the stalker using several different accounts. Granted this took place a few seasons ago and I'm told the admin I interacted with was tired of being an admin and that was their last season, but if I had been a fresh open player at that point I would have quit competitive TF2. If an admin isn't doing their job it is better for the players AND staff to just cut the dead weight. 

Poorly Defined Rules
Poorly defined rules cause a variety of problems in any league, but namely they make it harder to fairly enforce rules (as we have seen recently with RGL), they make it harder for players to know what is/is not worthy of being reported to an admin, and they make the league look less professional as a whole. For example: "Abusing the in-game text and voice chat functions will also not be tolerated" is a section included in the rules under section [1002.1], what counts as abuse? Can I be banned for reading the bee movie script over voice chat for fun during pregame, can I be banned for calling someone an idiot or saying a player is bad? Obviously those are pretty minor examples but if a player believes that being told to uninstall is abusive and reports it, but is told otherwise then they might feel like the rules haven't been enforced. To add to this, section [1002.2] states that "Unwelcome comments made towards a player (through any medium) that makes them feel uncomfortable or threatened" IS harassment, while "In-game 'trash talk'" IS NOT harassment. Does this mean that someone calling me fat (unwelcomed and making me uncomfortable) in game chat is or is not bannable? These are some more obvious examples for examples sake, but it doesn't take a lot to imagine how rules like this can cause some issues down the line, and that was just in the first two sections of the rules. Rules should be treated as laws and should have little to no room for interpretation, now obviously admins and players shouldn't need to be lawyers to read and understand the rules, but refining the rules could go a long way towards improving the league.

Cheating
While I'm by no means trying to suggest that RGL is plagued by cheaters, any player who has been around the league for some time will have undoubtedly noticed a handful of cheaters. I can only speak for the divisions that I have played, being open through main, but it seems like there has been a pattern emerging where in the months following a season we will recognize players from the past season's placement teams that get banned for cheating, suggesting a meta of rostering a cheater and being "unaware" of said cheater for that season. RGL has admittedly been cracking down on cheaters with the recent website based report system and the very recent development of random demo checks. However more people need to be held accountable than just the cheater who likely has some degree of apathy towards the fact that they're cheating. I believe a Three-strike rule for team leaders or similar system needs to be put in place, as apposed to the current system which only holds leaders accountable if it is blatantly obvious that they were enabling a cheater. It is understandable to unknowingly roster someone who has an uncloak boosting script once, or get unlucky twice, but after three times you're either a buffoon or an enabler; I know some team leaders that would be far less "oblivious" if they had some skin in the game. Furthermore, I believe there should be more severe punishments for cheaters, especially those that use aim hacks or even vision assistance. In sports doping not only can cause a lifetime ban from the sport but can also lead to the loss of sponsor deals, legal trouble, and generally nukes a player's career, in TF2 have aimbot gets you banned for 1 year (about 3 seasons).

Team Move Ups
I realize this is a much more specific issue to bring up, as mid-season move ups happen somewhat infrequently, but they absolutely need to be handled better. Especially in traditional sixes where match days change or increase in frequency based on division, getting moved up on short notice can totally destroy a team. An example of this can be this past season when my open sixes team (which composed of mostly main HL players with half having no sixes experience) got moved up to IM on week 4 less than 24 hours before our new IM match days. This caused the team to go from a single Wednesday match to two matches a week on Tuesday/Thursday plus a third match to make up for our missed IM matches, a schedule which massively conflicted with my team's personal and work lives, keeping us from scrimming or preparing as much as we would have liked to and causing us to get rolled by most IM teams. Obviously there is not a perfect solution to this problem, however I'd like to propose a few to start a discussion of possible solutions: Firstly, give more advanced notice for moving a team up a division so they have time to adjust their schedule/roster to adapt to the new division. Secondly, favor move downs instead of move ups, playing it safer with the division placements of teams would potentially result in less sand bagging and a less punishing feeling for well-playing teams. Finally, have the top placed teams in the divisions play against each other more early in the season, as my team had yet to play any team that finished even in the top 8 team of open, if we had played a good team we likely would have dropped more rounds and had a comparable win/loss record to the top teams in IM (which did not get moved up to main).

To close this thread I would just like to add that RGL is currently the only notable competitive TF2 league in North America and it is not only the staff's job to keep RGL alive and well, but all of our jobs as players. If you have issues and/or solutions to add or want to vocalize your support of any of the above issues/solutions, please do so in a constructive way as a comment on this thread.

To clarify: I'm not asking questions about the rules, questions here are rhetorical and for example purposes.

Addition: Please don't get hostile towards Exa or the rest of the admin team here, the fact that they are looking at this thread and listening is constructive and being hostile or giving them a reason to ignore this thread will cause more harm than good.
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#2
Dont care
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#3
zzzzzzzzzzzzz

okay i actually read the thread and like while theres some good points here there's no reason to even make this a public post you could've just contacted sigafoo or something and discussed it privately
Why even argue with scratchh.... he look like Gabe Newell son...... BUT 50x BIGGER!!!
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#4
1 laws have many interpretations (Fair use is a great example), also the language of law can be confusing to many people and hard to understand for many. the rules you listed are ment to be a grey area because "abuse" and "unwelcome comments" are in nature grey areas. I think the bee movie script bind is abuse of the text chat, but other people I know personally dont care.

2 why would you punish a bystander for being associated with someone who cheated? that's stupid, to go into your law comparison, we should punish store clerks for giving money to the robbers aswell becuase they are enabling the robber to commit the crime. I personally think 1 year isnt long enough ether but also for most players being banned for a year generally means their career is over anyhow. also what kind of legal trouble can rgl get into for having a cheater on their league. ESEA and ESL have history with cheaters on their sites aswell as pretty big and major match fixing scandles and they havent got any legal trouble sent their way. ESEA used to mine bitcoin without permission on clients computers and they werent hit with any legal trouble. what would a tiny league for a tiny competitive community get hit with legal troubles when valve hasn't looked at Team Fortress 2 for 3 years now.

3 a mid season moveup kills the team. we have a bigger problem getting teams to invite, and advance, move downs would only make the climb harder. their is a distinct gap between advance and main teams, IM will always be filled, advance is almost hardly this season 3 advance teams died and only 1 IM team died, we need to work on ways to make sure teams arent dieing in higher divs
I love my wife

Team history
Jerma is my dad
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#5
(03-26-2020, 08:23 PM)Scratchh Wrote: zzzzzzzzzzzzz

okay i actually read the thread and like while theres some good points here there's  no reason to even make this a public post you could've just contacted sigafoo or something and discussed it privately
The reason behind making this public is to bring some attention to it and also open up a constructive conversation about what can be improved in RGL. I didn't intend to and likely couldn't have compiled a comprehensive list of issues with the league, by making this public I was hoping people would fill in the gaps and add to the discussion.
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#6
Quote:League Management
A real example of this is when I reported a player who had been stalking me and harassing me for over a month (with documented screenshots), and my division's admin replied "Hater's gonna hate, just block him", even after I had shown the stalker using several different accounts. Granted this took place a few seasons ago and I'm told the admin I interacted with was tired of being an admin and that was their last season, but if I had been a fresh open player at that point I would have quit competitive TF2. 

We have a misconduct form that you can use here: https://rgl.gg/Players/Reporting/Misconduct.aspx, which was implemented 5 months ago.

A division administrator's job is to not deal with harassment and misconduct cases. Their job is to primarily deal with match disputes that arise in their division. Division administrators cannot even issue league bans -- only head administrators can. I have an idea of which division admin you are referring to and they would have been kicked immediately if this was brought to my attention. Please just message me if you have an issue with a division administrator.

Quote:Poorly Defined Rules
Poorly defined rules cause a variety of problems in any league, but namely they make it harder to fairly enforce rules (as we have seen recently with RGL), they make it harder for players to know what is/is not worthy of being reported to an admin, and they make the league look less professional as a whole. For example: "Abusing the in-game text and voice chat functions will also not be tolerated" is a section included in the rules under section [1002.1], what counts as abuse? Can I be banned for reading the bee movie script over voice chat for fun during pregame, can I be banned for calling someone an idiot or saying a player is bad? Obviously those are pretty minor examples but if a player believes that being told to uninstall is abusive and reports it, but is told otherwise then they might feel like the rules haven't been enforced. To add to this, section [1002.2] states that "Unwelcome comments made towards a player (through any medium) that makes them feel uncomfortable or threatened" IS harassment, while "In-game 'trash talk'" IS NOT harassment. Does this mean that someone calling me fat (unwelcomed and making me uncomfortable) in game chat is or is not bannable? These are some more obvious examples for examples sake, but it doesn't take a lot to imagine how rules like this can cause some issues down the line, and that was just in the first two sections of the rules. Rules should be treated as laws and should have little to no room for interpretation, now obviously admins and players shouldn't need to be lawyers to read and understand the rules, but refining the rules could go a long way towards improving the league.

If you are unsure about a rule, then you can message either a division administrator or a head administrator. They are there to answer your questions. If a case is brought forth, then the situation will be clarified to you.

Your "example" that you used is an "example" listed under [1002]

[Image: w9FkxrZ.png]

If you read through the entire section, you would see this:

[Image: ToCA5Jk.png]

The example that you quoted is just what it was meant to serve as -- an example. It does not mean that it is a strict rule that applies to all and every harassment cases. 

If you have dealt with a harassment case before, then you would understand that the context and circumstances are extremely important factors to consider when investigating such reports. Saying that there should have little to no room for interpretation for misconduct and harassment cases makes zero sense, when the very nature of these cases involves interpretation. It is like saying that all harassment cases are the same and they should all be treated the same.

Quote:Cheating
However more people need to be held accountable than just the cheater who likely has some degree of apathy towards the fact that they're cheating. I believe a Three-strike rule for team leaders or similar system needs to be put in place, as apposed to the current system which only holds leaders accountable if it is blatantly obvious that they were enabling a cheater. It is understandable to unknowingly roster someone who has an uncloak boosting script once, or get unlucky twice, but after three times you're either a buffoon or an enabler; I know some team leaders that would be far less "oblivious" if they had some skin in the game. Furthermore, I believe there should be more severe punishments for cheaters, especially those that use aim hacks or even vision assistance. In sports doping not only can cause a lifetime ban from the sport but can also lead to the loss of sponsor deals, legal trouble, and generally nukes a player's career, in TF2 have aimbot gets you banned for 1 year (about 3 seasons).

Okay, now this is constructive feedback that would be applicable to the league. I am referring to your point about leaders rostering cheaters or alt accounts more than three times. As for more severe punishments for cheaters, that is a topic for the larger community as a whole, as every competitive TF2 league issues one-year bans for cheaters. There are reasons for this that I won't get into too much here, but it boils down to the fact permanently banning a cheater would just lead them to use an alternate account, rather than being reformed when their ban expires.

Quote:Team Move Ups

Your post refers to 6v6. I would suggest talking to your division admin for 6v6 directly if you have complaints or issues about your placement.

Quote:Secondly, favor move downs instead of move ups, playing it safer with the division placements of teams would potentially result in less sand bagging and a less punishing feeling for well-playing teams.

If I am reading this correctly, moving down teams (especially good teams) would result in MORE sandbagging, not less sandbagging. I do not see how "favoring move downs" would assist with the goal here.

Quote:Finally, have the top placed teams in the divisions play against each other more early in the season, as my team had yet to play any team that finished even in the top 8 team of open, if we had played a good team we likely would have dropped more rounds and had a comparable win/loss record to the top teams in IM (which did not get moved up to main).

The Swiss structure works by having teams with similar scores play with each other. If you win more games, then you play with teams with better records. If you lose more games, then you play teams with worse records. This means that the "top placed teams" under a Swiss structure will often play each other at the end of the seasons, not at the beginning of the season. Though, by the end of the season as well, the top teams also start playing teams with bad records (e.g. top IM teams playing a team with a 1-15 record, as they have exhausted playing the other opponents left in the division).
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#7
Personally, I don't think this is something for a direct message to an admin. This is a series of points for open discussion. I know much of this has been brought up to admins with mixed results and half assed answers. These are things that people need to look at and evaluate so something happens rather than getting a short excuse from an admin for why things are the way they are. This is not a series of simple questions waiting for an answer. I don't agree 100% with Peaches' views of the league but what he says has merit and it should be discussed here by people who have interest in the topic.
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#8
(03-26-2020, 09:05 PM)FOAD Wrote: Personally, I don't think this is something for a direct message to an admin. This is a series of points for open discussion. I know much of this has been brought up to admins with mixed results and half assed answers. These are things that people need to look at and evaluate so something happens rather than getting a short excuse from an admin for why things are the way they are. This is not a series of simple questions waiting for an answer. I don't agree 100% with Peaches' views of the league but what he says has merit and it should be discussed here by people who have interest in the topic.

I am not disagreeing, since open discussion is fine. I would say that a lot of these points, especially regarding an issue with a division admin, clarification on a rule, or team placements could easily be settled in a direct message.

I am curious as to which points you are referring to that were met with "with mixed results and half assed answers" though.
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#9
(03-26-2020, 09:09 PM)exa_ | hl.rgl.gg Wrote: I am not disagreeing, since open discussion is fine. I would say that a lot of these points, especially regarding an issue with a division admin, clarification on a rule, or team placements could easily be settled in a direct message.
I wasn't so much asking for clarification on a rule or team placements, more so just using my experiences as examples for what other players have and could in the future experience in the current system. The questions regarding the rules were more so rhetorical and used as an examples of how inexperienced players might read and interpret the rules and feel that their issues aren't being enforced, even when they are technically being enforced.



(03-26-2020, 08:30 PM)Jman Wrote: 1 laws have many interpretations (Fair use is a great example), also the language of law can be confusing to many people and hard to understand for many. the rules you listed are ment to be a grey area because "abuse" and "unwelcome comments" are in nature grey areas. I think the bee movie script bind is abuse of the text chat, but other people I know personally dont care.
Some laws are open for interpretation but those laws are typically criticized for being so nonspecific, fair use for example is misenforced non-stop. I'm not necessarily saying we should have a lawyer team write the rules, but just have that level of clarity or a similar level of clarity in the rules.

(03-26-2020, 08:30 PM)Jman Wrote: 2 why would you punish a bystander for being associated with someone who cheated? that's stupid, to go into your law comparison, we should punish store clerks for giving money to the robbers aswell becuase they are enabling the robber to commit the crime. I personally think 1 year isnt long enough ether but also for most players being banned for a year generally means their career is over anyhow. also what kind of legal trouble can rgl get into for having a cheater on their league. ESEA and ESL have history with cheaters on their sites aswell as pretty big and major match fixing scandles and they havent got any legal trouble sent their way. ESEA used to mine bitcoin without permission on clients computers and they werent hit with any legal trouble. what would a tiny league for a tiny competitive community get hit with legal troubles when valve hasn't looked at Team Fortress 2 for 3 years now.
A team leader that has rostered 3 cheaters on their team is not an innocent bystander, it would be like having a mob boss order people to commit crimes and saying the mob boss is innocent because he didn't commit the crimes. I also wasn't implying that RGL could get into legal trouble over a cheater, I was just exemplifying all the ways that doping in real life sports can nuke a pro-player's career.

(03-26-2020, 08:30 PM)Jman Wrote: 3 a mid season moveup kills the team. we have a bigger problem getting teams to invite, and advance, move downs would only make the climb harder. their is a distinct gap between advance and main teams, IM will always be filled, advance is almost hardly this season 3 advance teams died and only 1 IM team died, we need to work on ways to make sure teams arent dieing in higher divs
I'm not going to say that invite and advance don't have team survival issues, but placing a potentially higher div team in that higher div and then moving them down voluntarily if they get rolled throughout the season wouldn't hurt invite/adv, and if anything would make moving up the ladder easier. Again I don't think that's a perfect solution and there have definitely been holes punched in it, that's the point of this thread, but I do think avoiding having to move teams up mid season and then handling it better is necessary. I do agree that moving up division is too difficult but that's more of a social issue that can't really be solved with policy change.
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#10
Hey Exa, you know what you saying, "just message an admin" tells me about the rule book being too vague? That you either want it to continue to be vague so that you can make interpretations based on whether you like the person in question or not, OR that you don't know how to make it more specific so that this kind of confusion doesn't happen, which seems to indicate that maybe you aren't the right person to be handling this particular issue. While I can't speak for everyone, I can certainly attest to being pretty darn confused by the rules as they're written, and I've honestly felt victimized by the fast-and-loose interpretations that the admins seem to do with the rules for things like harassment, sportsmanship, and slurs.

I've already written a nerd essay about this for the S2 survey, but I feel like my case is a perfect example of the kind of confusion the average player faces when they read the rule book the way that it is right now, and I feel like this is self evident from the fact that I still don't know exactly what rule I broke to get banned. If it was a ban for saying a slur (Which I didn't) it would've been a two-week ban, if we're to believe the rule book. If it was for unsportsmanlike behavior, it's literally impossible that I would've been banned while my opponents (who stole a win by denying all our ringers and threatening to report a FFW if we didn't start playing immediately, and continued to be belligerent in chat throughout the night(the even more hilarious part of this is that the player in question later publicly admitted to be trying to game the system to get people banned in order to show the flaws in the ways reports and bans are handled)) wouldn't have been.  And when I reached out to Daff, a head admin who was presumably there when the decision was made, even he couldn't tell me what I had done wrong other than sharing the screenshots that were apparently so damning they warranted a ban. And then when I asked if there was anything I could do to appeal the ban, he flat-out told me there was nothing he could do because the other admins don't care.

Did I say something I probably shouldn't have? Sure. Did I think that ever in a million years I would get BANNED for it? Nope. So I guess you can take this as me, messaging you, right now, to ask, what did I do wrong? Is it literally just the word "Jew"? Is it the context? If it's the context, why does context stop at the sentence it's in, and not include the actual situation in which it was said? Why do I have to do detective work to figure out what I did wrong? Is this how all bans are handled? If so, it's no fucking wonder you guys seem to have so much trouble handling your eTerrorist problem: your players don't know where the line is until they've crossed it, so how on Earth are they gonna be able to stay on your side? It feels like I'd have better luck figuring out the rules with a divining rod than the rule book itself.

I also wanna point out that I'm not trying to be the bad guy here. I really really really want RGL to be the best league it can possibly be. But honestly it feels so unfair that you and the rest of the admin team are so totally unwilling or unable to be transparent or helpful when it comes to stuff like this that it makes me want to quit the game altogether. I don't want to continue playing this game if it means putting my head in a guillotine and waiting for an admin to get bored enough to cut the rope. And that's exactly how the current situation with the rules and bans feels.

As someone who's been a victim of the system as it is now, and who knows lots of other people who have been banned and have no idea whatsoever what they did to get banned (other than associating with players known to RGL to be eTerrorists), you coming on here and shrugging off legitimate criticism as, "well there has to be room for interpretation because some situations are different from others" does less than nothing to make me want to continue playing on this platform, even if that means I have to quit the game altogether.

So if you could shed some light on this whole situation for me, that'd be lovely. Or I guess you could shrug me off as some angry-on-the-internet-loser like you seem to do with so many other legitimate grievances people have with the platform and how you run it. Cheers.
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#11
(03-26-2020, 11:40 PM)ghadilli Wrote: Did I say something I probably shouldn't have? Sure. Did I think that ever in a million years I would get BANNED for it? Nope. So I guess you can take this as me, messaging you, right now, to ask, what did I do wrong? Is it literally just the word "Jew"? Is it the context? If it's the context, why does context stop at the sentence it's in, and not include the actual situation in which it was said? Why do I have to do detective work to figure out what I did wrong? Is this how all bans are handled? If so, it's no fucking wonder you guys seem to have so much trouble handling your eTerrorist problem: your players don't know where the line is until they've crossed it, so how on Earth are they gonna be able to stay on your side? It feels like I'd have better luck figuring out the rules with a divining rod than the rule book itself.


So if you could shed some light on this whole situation for me, that'd be lovely. Or I guess you could shrug me off as some angry-on-the-internet-loser like you seem to do with so many other legitimate grievances people have with the platform and how you run it. Cheers.
 just dont say anything disparaging about a specific group of people its really not that fucking hard
exa and the other admins have been as open as they can be through all these "dramas" youre just crying that you got banned for being the [REDACTED] you are
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#12
Quote:Hey Exa, you know what you saying, "just message an admin" tells me about the rule book being too vague? That you either want it to continue to be vague so that you can make interpretations based on whether you like the person in question or not, OR that you don't know how to make it more specific so that this kind of confusion doesn't happen, which seems to indicate that maybe you aren't the right person to be handling this particular issue.

I bring up to message an admin, because they are ultimately there to clarify the situations that may be present in a rule. This is evident in if something is considered a map or game exploit, which obviously, we would not be able to list every single exploit that is not allowed in the league. We would give examples in the rulesets of what is permissible or not. If there is a specific rule that you think should be better clarified and is something that we could edit in the rule book, then by all means, this is something that players are more then welcome to point out.

Quote:Did I say something I probably shouldn't have? Sure. Did I think that ever in a million years I would get BANNED for it? Nope. So I guess you can take this as me, messaging you, right now, to ask, what did I do wrong? Is it literally just the word "Jew"? Is it the context? If it's the context, why does context stop at the sentence it's in, and not include the actual situation in which it was said? Why do I have to do detective work to figure out what I did wrong? Is this how all bans are handled? If so, it's no fucking wonder you guys seem to have so much trouble handling your eTerrorist problem: your players don't know where the line is until they've crossed it, so how on Earth are they gonna be able to stay on your side? It feels like I'd have better luck figuring out the rules with a divining rod than the rule book itself.

The context for your situation with the other team denying the ringers during the match was definitely brought up. It is not like that was completely left out. And yes, you are completely in the right to be upset about the other team's actions that led up to the moment.

[Image: vDMItTT.png]

In your case, I would have recommended contacting your division admin in regards to the other team denying all your ringers. We would have accommodated your situation.

While I can sympathize with how the other team was acting, that does not give a player a pass to say whatever they want.

'Well the other team denied 5 ringers, so what if I just said a hard-r in chat? What's the big deal, they were mean first!' Obviously that's not going to fly and neither in your situation does the actions of the other team give you a pass for your own actions. The fact that you cannot see that using jew in a derogatory way is not the correct thing to do is concerning. Words have power and have meaning and we ask that you try to be respectful in the language you use when you engage with this community, even when you're upset... especially when you're upset. So, while we can understand why you were frustrated in that moment, it doesn't excuse the actions you chose to take.

[Image: unknown.png]

Quote:But honestly it feels so unfair that you and the rest of the admin team are so totally unwilling or unable to be transparent or helpful when it comes to stuff like this 

I am confused as to how we have been unwilling or unable to be transparent in regards to these cases. We are not trying to hide anything. In fact, I have written possibly of an upwards of close to a dozen articles regarding these conduct bans, how the league is addressing these cases, and more. In the most recent article, you can see it here:
[Image: 52UYTPm.png]

I very clearly list out the offense made, the length, and how many offenses they have committed.

I also talk about sportsmanship, behavior, and harassment in another article here. There are many examples, but being transparent about these cases and how they are handled are essential points that I bring up in the articles where necessary.

Quote:you coming on here and shrugging off legitimate criticism as, "well there has to be room for interpretation because some situations are different from others" does less than nothing to make me want to continue playing on this platform

I am not shrugging off legitimate criticism. If players have constructive criticism for the league itself and are willing to post their thoughts in an appropriate manner, then I will definitely look into it. For the league, I am very open to feedback and criticism and if something is not working as well as it should be, then I will try my best to fix it. I am just explaining the thought process of how the context and circumstances of a case play a role in how someone would interpret it.
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#13
I didn't say I didn't deserve the ban, I said I didn't understand it at the time, and honestly I still don't, but I'm not running the league so it's a moot point to begin with. Honestly it's kind of insulting that you're putting words in my mouth like that, but I understand that it's easy to misunderstand people on forums.

And I didn't really want to but since you're apparently cool just airing shit out for no reason: it's weird that you would say to contact my division admin, considering he was out of town and the admin we were talking to at the time was the 6s head admin Daff, who was presumably in the meeting where my ban was decided to begin with. And I've already talked with him at length about this and he did nothing to help me understand the position that you and whoever else makes these decisions had, all he told me was he disagrees with the ban and that there's nothing he can do because the other admins, "are not very sympathetic towards your case." (It's weird, I thought you guys had a strict no sharing evidence policy for bans, or at least that's what sigafoo told my friend about his ban when he asked him directly. But I guess we're just posting shit on the forums now).

Also, what about the part where the only reason Jag is reporting anything at all is, and I quote, "... to pass some of the grief on that was done onto my team." Or when he said, "RGL is way overzealous with enforcement of this stuff and I'd like to see this change." Or, my favorite line, "There's definitely a huge policing overreach problem with RGL. That's probably the league's biggest flaw that everyone is currently struggling with. The intentions may be good but the implementation is utterly flawed. Currently the system can simply be weaponized by teams against other teams to take out the competition outside of the game."

He is abusing the system and using it as a weapon against other teams. And why did he do this? Because somebody else did it to him. Should players be allowed to drop hard Rs in matches with no repercussions? No! Obviously not! But the fact of the matter is that the system right now is way too open to exploitation, and I know that because the system was used as a weapon against my team. Again one more time for the folks in the back, I deserved to get banned for what I said. But you also clearly have a player who isn't using the system in the morally pure way that it was brought down from the mountain: He's using it to cheat within the bounds of the rules, and I literally cannot imagine anything less sportsmanlike (Also, denying 5 ringers and threatening to FFW if we don't start playing immediately is unsportsmanlike, whether the absent division admin would've granted it or not isn't relevant, the fact of the matter is that he intended to steal a win by forcing us to play unfairly. But who has time for sportsmanship, amirite? We got all these edgy teenagers saying funny words we gotta deal with!). I do not know the perfect solution to this problem. But clearly some people, including the people using the system, have identified a problem, and again, you pretending there isn't one because the person you're talking to said the J-word (SHOCK AND HORROR) is literally the opposite of helpful and encouraging for the people dealing with it.

And just to make sure God above heard me, I DESERVED TO GET BANNED FOR WHAT I SAID.

But here's the thing though, dog: you didn't even tell me what rule I broke to get banned. Since you're putting hard-Rs in my mouth I assume it must have been a dreaded SLUR BAN, but the rule book says, in pretty plain language "1st offense will be a 2-week ban (3 weeks for invite)." So I guess there were some extenuating circumstances that you guys just forgot to mention when you were communicating the ban to me. See, that would've been way more helpful than two words on the website and Daff telling me, "I was in favor of doing nothing." So thanks for the clarification, even if it did require a little more detective work on my part.

Anyway, since you're apparently open to suggestions, here's an idea for you guys to help clear some of this confusion up. How about instead of completely stopping people from logging in when they get banned, you let them log in, and right there on the first page they see is a clearly laid out reason for the ban, with at least 1 (ONE) whole sentence explaining what they did wrong, what specific part of the rule book they can look at for more information, that the situation is understood in full by the admins, and that for any further clarification they can contact X admin to talk to them about what they did wrong, and how they can do better in the future. On second thought maybe you'd better use more than one sentence. But hey, I bet a buncha guys as smart as all ya'll could figure out some kinda form to fill out that would generate such a paragraph nicely, and I bet it'd even be pretty slick once ya'll get done with it. At least for the benefit of other poor old aspies like myself who need things a little more spelled out than the average person. Because I was (until you accidentally explained it to me) genuinely confused what specific rule I had broken. And one last time, for posterity,

I DESERVED TO GET BANNED FOR WHAT I SAID


Anyway, my whole point was exactly what you and I have just demonstrated through this grand balet: the rule book is not clear enough when it comes to things like bans for unsportsmanlike behavior, using inappropriate language, harassment, and so on. Because your interpretation as an admin might not be immediately and obviously apparent to every player looking at the rule book trying to figure out where they went wrong. Because things like clearly stated standardized ban lengths for specific offenses make it confusing when a ban is for that specific reason, but the ban length doesn't match. Or at least it makes it confusing for people like me, who I guess must just be stupid or something. So either a more specific set of rules with less room for interpretation, or more specific communication with affected parties, or preferably both. But likely neither, because people who get banned from RGL are just straight up bad people, through and through, and they all deserve the fucking guillotine. Chop my head off papa Siga.
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#14
I would like to expand ghadilli's case to include mine.

I sent in an application to the RGL administration team to maybe become one of them. I was met a couple days/weeks later with a 10,000 year ban instead of any follow up. The ban, which was super unclear and did not fit my profile, lasted a total of 18 hours max with my appeal. On probation, I search the sea for the reason of my ban to this day.

1) The ban
I still have no details on my ban. I don't know what caused it, any screenshots, how many people reported me, nothing. It's been almost 3 months since those bans, and there's nothing RGL released, showed, or even helped me to understand my situation any better than what it was. During that time, I did not play offseason or anything. So why the ban? I don't know. I've contacted not only my division admin, but out to exa and sigafoo to at least get some clearity. I spoke with each for about 10 minutes on average, and was met with the reply


Quote:We, as a policy, never release information that is given to us that could reveal the source
Why? Why is this the single  phrase that plagues this ban? I can't know any details about my ban other than I'm a "Known doxxer, hacker, or supporter harassment"? What single evidence do you have? Wait, I know. You have PLENTY of it! Stated RIGHT HERE:

Quote:The following individuals have overwhelming evidence pointing...
So where's my share of this evidence? Why are you jailing me from my ban. I spoke with 3 admins about my ban, and none of them can tell me why. No single DM can fix this, I'm sorry. Nothing RGL can do to fix this situation or try to help understand the ban. 3 months overdue this explaination is. I've been clear, understanding, and working with you guys to figure out my situation. I have not gone out on you, I have not bashed your name, nothing. I was professional in my DM's, and I was willing to understand anything you gave me. However, your response was not professional. What am I suppost to do now? 

2) The probation
I'm still on RGL probation. For the entire season, I could have said anything and gotten reported for it and I probably would have been banned. With the way you treat some of your players/bans, I can accept that this could have happened. I reached out to both sigafoo and exa again about this probation to see if I could be clean again. Sadly, no. They treat any report on any site a reason to not retract your probation. Even though, as a policy, they do not police other sites unless there's some actual harassment involved, I'm still somehow under scrutiny. 
Quote:because we are looking for zero reports on players on probation when we reevaluate the probation status down the road
 This once sentece breaks it down to me like this: I can't get probation removed until RGL decides that I no longer am a threat to their players. How long is that? Up to them. Their mood could make it longer, or shorter. Since they consider reports from anywhere a report, if I say something on another forum and a person notices, reports that, that report would block me from being clean again. I can't do anything but literally stay silent, but where's the fun in that? Why should I have to watch every word I say in fear of being banned for being misinterpreted? Don't believe me? Check my RGL posts, my TFTV posts, my discord posts, if they ever release the general again. I don't go out talking about killing people, I certainly shittalk though. That's inside the rules. Maybe not out in public, sometimes yes. That should not be my reason though. I guess we'll never know nor will I see the day I'm free from RGL's watchful eyes. 


I wanted to help RGL, and I still think about helping. I would love to be explained everything, learn from this mistakes, and move on. I would still like to become one of RGL's admins or helpers or anything. I like challenges, and this is one. I'm an avid programmer online, and have a manager position at my job. Professionalism is what I am taught, and I maintain that to an extent online, especially on this platform. I sent in an explaination and they're almost like ignoreing me. I can't get past a wall of distrust, whatever I say I feel like is being ignored. No conversations are being passed along, and when I speak to their higher level admins I feel like they don't know how to speak clearly at times. It's like speaking to somebody you hate, where they just want to tell you to fuck off. What if I want a conversation in a human way? Speak like you know what you're talking about, and not having to explain all your actions on a forum post every month. Everything RGL has been doing is working, sure. But the players that play inside of it, when met with this kind of situation, I bet will no longer play on this platform. Until things change, this will happen regularly. The people loyal, stay, and the people who learn this the hard way will disappear out of this game. 

I'm looking for a response of any type to clear this situation up. None of your previous forum posts help me, and I doubt another one will. But things change, maybe for the better. One day I wish to look on this site as a growth to TF2.
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#15
(03-27-2020, 11:19 AM)Mr. Manager Wrote: I would like to expand ghadilli's case to include mine.

I sent in an application to the RGL administration team to maybe become one of them. I was met a couple days/weeks later with a 10,000 year ban instead of any follow up. The ban, which was super unclear and did not fit my profile, lasted a total of 18 hours max with my appeal. On probation, I search the sea for the reason of my ban to this day.

1) The ban
I still have no details on my ban. I don't know what caused it, any screenshots, how many people reported me, nothing. It's been almost 3 months since those bans, and there's nothing RGL released, showed, or even helped me to understand my situation any better than what it was. During that time, I did not play offseason or anything. So why the ban? I don't know. I've contacted not only my division admin, but out to exa and sigafoo to at least get some clearity. I spoke with each for about 10 minutes on average, and was met with the reply


Quote:We, as a policy, never release information that is given to us that could reveal the source
Why? Why is this the single  phrase that plagues this ban? I can't know any details about my ban other than I'm a "Known doxxer, hacker, or supporter harassment"? What single evidence do you have? Wait, I know. You have PLENTY of it! Stated RIGHT HERE:

Quote:The following individuals have overwhelming evidence pointing...
So where's my share of this evidence? Why are you jailing me from my ban. I spoke with 3 admins about my ban, and none of them can tell me why. No single DM can fix this, I'm sorry. Nothing RGL can do to fix this situation or try to help understand the ban. 3 months overdue this explaination is. I've been clear, understanding, and working with you guys to figure out my situation. I have not gone out on you, I have not bashed your name, nothing. I was professional in my DM's, and I was willing to understand anything you gave me. However, your response was not professional. What am I suppost to do now? 

2) The probation
I'm still on RGL probation. For the entire season, I could have said anything and gotten reported for it and I probably would have been banned. With the way you treat some of your players/bans, I can accept that this could have happened. I reached out to both sigafoo and exa again about this probation to see if I could be clean again. Sadly, no. They treat any report on any site a reason to not retract your probation. Even though, as a policy, they do not police other sites unless there's some actual harassment involved, I'm still somehow under scrutiny. 
Quote:because we are looking for zero reports on players on probation when we reevaluate the probation status down the road
 This once sentece breaks it down to me like this: I can't get probation removed until RGL decides that I no longer am a threat to their players. How long is that? Up to them. Their mood could make it longer, or shorter. Since they consider reports from anywhere a report, if I say something on another forum and a person notices, reports that, that report would block me from being clean again. I can't do anything but literally stay silent, but where's the fun in that? Why should I have to watch every word I say in fear of being banned for being misinterpreted? Don't believe me? Check my RGL posts, my TFTV posts, my discord posts, if they ever release the general again. I don't go out talking about killing people, I certainly shittalk though. That's inside the rules. Maybe not out in public, sometimes yes. That should not be my reason though. I guess we'll never know nor will I see the day I'm free from RGL's watchful eyes. 


I wanted to help RGL, and I still think about helping. I would love to be explained everything, learn from this mistakes, and move on. I would still like to become one of RGL's admins or helpers or anything. I like challenges, and this is one. I'm an avid programmer online, and have a manager position at my job. Professionalism is what I am taught, and I maintain that to an extent online, especially on this platform. I sent in an explaination and they're almost like ignoreing me. I can't get past a wall of distrust, whatever I say I feel like is being ignored. No conversations are being passed along, and when I speak to their higher level admins I feel like they don't know how to speak clearly at times. It's like speaking to somebody you hate, where they just want to tell you to fuck off. What if I want a conversation in a human way? Speak like you know what you're talking about, and not having to explain all your actions on a forum post every month. Everything RGL has been doing is working, sure. But the players that play inside of it, when met with this kind of situation, I bet will no longer play on this platform. Until things change, this will happen regularly. The people loyal, stay, and the people who learn this the hard way will disappear out of this game. 

I'm looking for a response of any type to clear this situation up. None of your previous forum posts help me, and I doubt another one will. But things change, maybe for the better. One day I wish to look on this site as a growth to TF2.
"History of involvement/organizing of harassment and continuous usage of slurs/hate speech. This is supplied with usually supporting violence, doxing, DDOSing, hacking, continuous social media, or in-game harassment. No set minimum period and the user can appeal their ban immediately. "

there's your reason, your ban got appealed anyways so stop whinning
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#16
(03-27-2020, 12:42 PM)ghost Wrote: there's your reason, your ban got appealed anyways so stop whinning

This is not helpful.

Please read what I said. Reply once you understand my situation.

I would also like to say that just beacuse I got my ban appealed doesn't mean anything. I could still have critisim of my ban and would like to express some constructive criticism of RGL. If there's no other thing you would like to point out, then don't respond. I intend my posts to be a way to get something out to the admins and for people to understand the situation ghad is in and what I went through. Thank you for understanding.

Again, please read what I said in its entirety. We all know that if you say bad words bad things happen. Read what ghadilli, I said and respond with something else than "oh you should have known what you did" "you deserve your ban" or whatnot. We're making points to try to change by providing our views and experiences with the RGL system. We want to have admin transparency, not some person to say what we already know. I can't express this enough or in a way that is polite enough.


JUST. READ. OUR. WHOLE. POSTS.
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#17
dont harass people and you wont get banned
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#18
(03-27-2020, 12:42 PM)ghost Wrote:
(03-27-2020, 11:19 AM)Mr. Manager Wrote:  beast
"History of involvement/organizing of harassment and continuous usage of slurs/hate speech. This is supplied with usually supporting violence, doxing, DDOSing, hacking, continuous social media, or in-game harassment. No set minimum period and the user can appeal their ban immediately. "

there's your reason, your ban got appealed anyways so stop whinning
congratulations you've made the dumbest post in forum history

also 24 has never done anything wrong to deserve a probation and the same goes for kuhnockers della & phox!
Why even argue with scratchh.... he look like Gabe Newell son...... BUT 50x BIGGER!!!
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#19
(03-27-2020, 11:19 AM)24 Wrote: I sent in an application to the RGL administration team to maybe become one of them. I was met a couple days/weeks later with a 10,000 year ban instead of any follow up. The ban, which was super unclear and did not fit my profile, lasted a total of 18 hours max with my appeal.

I'm not sure why you're lumping in your submitting for a request to be an admin with you being placed on probation. As those two things had nothing to do with each other. Secondly, you were NOT banned for 10k years, you had an indefinite ban, that was to be lifted as soon as you fill out an appeal and acknowledge that you will not take part in harassing others, and other league offenses.

All of this was explained inside of your ban, the fact that it could be lifted immediately and the fact that it was indefinite, not for any set length.  

"History of involvement/organizing of harassment and continuous usage of slurs/hate speech. This is supplied with usually supporting violence, doxing, DDOSing, hacking, continuous social media, or in-game harassment. No set minimum period and the user can appeal their ban immediately."

It then included a link to the article which talked a little more about the series of probations laid down.

(03-27-2020, 11:19 AM)24 Wrote: 1) The ban

Yes, when it comes to reports of harassment and other activities, we as a policy do not reveal sources (after we verify everything.) The reason being, is that it could cause blowback to the person who revealed. Or allow players to understand how they got found out and do better at covering their trails. We had a very large report with many people who were in it, we reviewed it and from there some players were put on probation.

24 Wrote: 2) The probation

You don't have to watch every word you say, just don't take part in harassing other players, or other offenses in RGL. The overwhelming majority of our player base does not have a hard time not saying slurs or not harassing others. If you feel like you're struggling with not doing these things, then it sounds like it's good that you're on probation. If you're not doing these things, then you're in the clear and you have nothing to worry about.

So to your hyperbole of "I could have said anything and gotten reported for it and I probably would have been banned" obviously this is not true. As we have gotten some reports on you throughout the season but did not deem them to warrant us to take action on you. On top of this, if you look at the others who were put on probation, none of them have just been suddenly banned for "anything" just because we felt like it. This is a tool we use for players who we are worried may cause issues going forward, and we want to make sure that they understand that if they continue to do those actions, they will face more serious consequences.

Basically 24, if you just treat everyone with basic respect and you'll be fine.
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#20
(03-27-2020, 02:19 PM)sigafoo<3 | RGL.gg Wrote: Secondly, you were NOT banned for 10k years, you had an indefinite ban, that was to be lifted as soon as you fill out an appeal and acknowledge that you will not take part in harassing others, and other league offenses.

Yes, when it comes to reports of harassment and other activities, we as a policy do not reveal sources (after we verify everything.) The reason being, is that it could cause blowback to the person who revealed. Or allow players to understand how they got found out and do better at covering their trails. We had a very large report with many people who were in it, we reviewed it and from there some players were put on probation.

Basically 24, if you just treat everyone with basic respect and you'll be fine.

Ah, the 3 points. A great response, however. 

1) Unforunately, that appeal I sent in was basically me guessing my ban, I'm afraid. I'm fairly certain that whatever I said was not the case for my ban. My appeal was sent in without any prior knowledge about the ban, because the ban is so open. It could mean many things. If only I knew what I (Or other players in similar situations to me) knew our actions, I could have easily made up for it and accepted all actions against us. But this is just keeping it from us.

2) You don't have to reveal anything, but a basic explaination of how I was banned could go a lot further than that block of text describing many different things. Screenshots are pretty neat, but I understand your security behind that and your policy. However, a reason as vague as I was met with is simply not adequate enough for a real appeal response.

3) Yes, of course. I know I'll be fine if I don't say anything. But until I am proven to my face that my actions in the past was not respectful in the last 6 months or even year, I will consider all actions in my past to be respectful. I don't have a fantastic memory, I can't remember what I do but certainly you have a log of my actions with the reports you gathered. 

What I want from this is a bit more human like conversation. I know my ban reason, I know what your policy is, and I know why it's in place. What I don't understand is how come these are in place the way they are, why people can abuse the system and not get punished in ghad's bans explaination, and what are you doing to fix it? It's like everything being said is repeated, over and over. Maybe I am repeating myself, but that's because there's so many questions to ask that you refused to answer or help me understand it more. You can just shrug what I say off and never have to talk to me again, however how would that look like on you by doing that?

With that out, 2 questions from this are:
  1. What is being done to prevent situations like this in the future, in ghad's case?
  2. Will I ever recieve evidence to prove that I'm a threat to your platform?

A little 2 way respect can go a long way, and I'm willing to put all respect into you if I recieve the same back.


But I guess I'm not respecting anyone, and that what I'm saying isn't helping you in any way. Seems like all I do is harass and call people slurs, according to your last sentence. If you want to clear it up even more, DM or call. Beacuse these text's aren't doing much help as I think you can see. 

I guess this is where my far-fetched apology for those who were harassed by me. Don't remember, but I guess this is the best for you and me. Nothing else can fix it but send one out to everyone. 

Goodbye.
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