• 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
OPEN DISCUSSION: HOW TO BETTER VALVE MATCHMAKING & BRING IN NEW PLAYERS
#1
Intro:

Pretty much everyone in the past 3 yrs has said something like “tf2 is dead” including myself. According to https://steamcharts.com/ , tf2 is still in the top 10 games played on steam, and if you go back to 2013-14, it was barely getting an extra 10k on today’s numbers. OK but what does that mean? “theyre just pubbers gobi ur fucking stupid, theyre just children who play pubs and wont play comp, or community servers”. Okay, but why are these players playing on let’s say saxton hale or AFK play sniper on trade servers all day???

Well, there are multiple options that I won’t go into (1. Theyre young, 2. They just like the gamemode, 3. They don’t have the time, etc.). That brings me to the points; we all (or don’t) know the story: leagues crying @ valve that they weren’t doing anything for the game, and pressured them, sent letters & etc to get them to do something. So, what did valve do? They added the god-awful matchmaking system we know today; forced configs, cheaters, dead within a few months. Nice! Good job. Now what can we do better?

If TF2 can fetch 70k players on average, there is no way you can’t have a league that more than like 70 teams playing (HL) and like 100 in 6s. Here is a graph I made of the ACTIVE TEAMS every season:
BTW THIS IS HL ONLY NOT 6S , 6S PROB HAS DOUBLE
[Image: MAMrUFP.png]
Wow, this is very cool, but I don’t know what any of this means gobi!!! Ok well, let me make it very clear. We all know (or again, don’t) what the problems @ UGC were. I’m not gonna go into details since my opinion is a bit biased since I was myself an admin, I know their wrongs and goods, and I don’t think RGL or UGC are terrible.
Ok very cool gobi but can u get to the fucking point already!!?!??!

Yes, I will. But one more thing!! Let’s look at the current league advertisement. (Let’s focus on RGL since it’s the biggest league rn). RGL’s advertisement can be summed up to posting blog posts on valve’s website and … Go on google on a vpn. Type “competitive tf2”. For most of u, the first thing u will see is 1. Tf2center 2. Some website that shows u all the leagues but RGL isn’t on there 3. Tf2center. WOW. WHAT? TF2center?? DING DING DING!!!

We all know TF2center crawls with noobs. How the owner doesn’t even play tf2 anymore, how warpy is like the only admin, how tf2center will probably still find a way to create tf2 servers after the game is terminated, etc. But that’s the point. New players go to TF2center because it’s easy to find, (rgl will end up on google when they’re older…), and there’s the concept of PRESS AND PLAY. You press a button, you’re playing!! No need to find a team, anything.

Being on a team takes a lot of commitment. And not everyone is going to want to give that commitment. Especially when the first thing you see when you open a league’s page is either:

[Image: 1ATtoz9.jpg]
Holy mother of clutter??
[Image: J7Rzyoa.png]
Thanks, RGL, I know you don’t run on fairy dust. But I’d like to play, not donate. Can I play?? (I tried to find the page where u can see all the leagues, I love it, but I just couldn’t find it lol)

OK BUT PLEASE GOBI STOP TORTURING MY SOUL AND GET TO THE POINT!!

What TF2 leagues currently need is a pugging system like TF2center. TF2center probably doesn’t give a fuck about being “partners” with any leagues (I know warpy is open to some stuff though, idk about masternoob). So if they don’t want to; what’s the harm in just making another one?? Butbutbutbutbu GOBI THERES HL PUGS AND NO ONE ADDS UP ON IT. OK but we all know high elo players just hogged it, plus there’s already been a huge thread about it so if u post it here I wont even reply tbh the point has been made on it.

I think a league should make a platform like TF2center, advertise it @ the valve blog and show valve they can make a queue system that isn’t completely fucking broken. BUT GOBI FACEIT HAD TF2 AND IT DIDN’T WORK!!!! Ok but 1. Faceit isn’t a league and 2. They’d force u to change your picture and stuff 3. They shut down cause they literally broke their system when updating features lol.

If you want pubbers to go to competitive, u need to give them something as close as pubs to begin with, in an organized environment. A system like TF2c is the perfect example.  It’s a good incentive for when these “pubbers” will get bored of fragging yet another jorge.lopez2004, and when they try to queue for competitive in-game, well.. we know what happens (spoiler: nothing cause it’s dead). There is NO REASON why leagues cannot fetch players when there are literally 70k+ on it. Go ring and open and 90% of the teams are either little kids or adults that have no clue what is going on because they’re noobs and trying to get into competitive. If you have a TF2center-like system where your league name is plastered everywhere, you will eventually attract players because they’ll either a. don’t like it and go back to pubs or b. like it and want to try the “real thing”. It’s like a “feeder-league”, kind of. Go to TF2c and youll see a shit ton of players with like 3000 lobbies, 6000 hours yet they’ve like never touched any league, but they still sit on TF2C every night because that’s what they do.

 I think that if a league succeeded in creating a successful TF2c-like platform, aimed at bringing in noobs (I would not lock it for older players… just moderate it, make some lobbies “noobs only” where if the account has experience on RGL they cant play, then u can find the obvious alts….) It’s not a fully-formed idea, but imagine if you made a successful system like so, and then you went up to valve like “Hey we have an update for your in-game comp, we have it all coded and etc. u want it? Ok cool, but here’s our terms…” I mean, we all know the tf2 team is small and they probably don’t care since they’ll never shutdown tf2 since it basically shits money in their mouths off of micro transactions (and trust me, I know, I have an item added into the game)
 
Tl;dr : it’s way too hard for new players to get into comp, why not have a system like TF2c that feeds new players into your league?
 
 
Conclusion
I don’t really care if no one agrees with me, ive probably missed some things (things that have already been tried and etc). But let’s all remember that the reason valve stopped uploading medals to the game is because all of those 99999999999999 newbie cups tried adding a shit ton of assets into the game. Why weren’t those players on a league? Why did they have to make their own newbie cup?

Give opinions on this, feedback, flame, call me stupid, I want this to be an open discussion about how to bring new players into the scene of a game with 70,000 players on average daily! I know there are a lot of factors like time commitment, but I think it’s still possible to fetch players with what I proposed.

I also just want to note that this applies to NA, but if other regions also want to do this, imagine how awesome a TF2 international LAN would be ! (froyotech facing best team in EU on 30 ping.. or best team in SA, asia... wow!! but i dont think the game is popular enough to consider that yet ......)

this post is missing a lot of info but I didnt take long to write this so feel free to add, refute or change anything you want
what the hell am i doing here?
  Reply
#2
I just want the stats page from tf2lobby back. Also TF2center has 0 motivation to be innovative and it’s current state is terribly administer. Creating a new one with backing of a league would be game changer and maybe what comp needs. Please bring back tf2lobby stats!!!!!
I will always be a pyro main <3
  Reply
#3
(05-21-2020, 01:47 PM)Arzt Hispanian Wrote: I just want the stats page from tf2lobby back. Also TF2center has 0 motivation to be innovative and it’s current state is terribly administer. Creating a new one with backing of a league would be game changer and maybe what comp needs. Please bring back tf2lobby stats!!!!!

thats epic and that is true, when I was a UGC admin Warpy was actually pretty kind and open about wanting to help a little, but they don't really want to associate with any league, and they've lost most of their mods for EU/AUZ/ etc etc over the years and thats why no one in those regions goes on there anymore. No dev team.

I think the most disappointing part is NA's inability to come together, or just every tf2 region in general, to work from the greater good, which is understandable considering (as said in the league meeting last year) who wants to give up on all their work just to join someone else's?
what the hell am i doing here?
  Reply
#4
I don't really see valve collaborating very much with us. I mean, we ran a whole season of mm 6s, gave them a shit load of feedback, and they did zilch. We can't even get them to turn random crits off, I doubt they'd implement anything we do in-game, if I'm understanding you correctly, though I could conceive they might mention rgl pugs in a way.

I know we're currently working on a new pugging system, but that's literally all I know. I think having its own website would be awesome, so you would be able to see it in google or something.

I think a decent reason why people don't get into competitive is because tf2center is so dogshit. I tried tf2center a couple of times several years ago as a pubbie and it scared me off, I didn't realize half of my lobby was plat players and I got shat on, both in game and in comms, and I gave up and decided comp wasn't for me. It wasn't until I tried rgl pugs about a year and a half ago that I realized I wasn't all that bad and it's just tf2center that sucks. I think rgl pugs in their current form are great, I know they're considered trash to higher level players, but they're a massively awesome thing for noobs and the pug runners do a great (not perfect, but I can't blame them) job at making sure things are civil, balancing teams, and making sure people don't throw.

imo our #1 priority should be just taking the existing rgl prolander pugs and advertising them more, because when the average pubbie tries to look into getting into competitive they see tf2center marketed as the bridge between public and competitive, even though it isn't really at all. Expanding them to other formats like HL and traditional 6s might be helpful, but I honestly think prolander pugs get the job done pretty well for teaching people the basics of HL and the player count makes it easier to pug with.
  Reply
#5
imagine if rgl just used tf2stadium on an official basis and incorporated it into the website, unfortunately i remember hearing something about them not being co operative. correct me if im wrong. Or rolling hl pugs into it idk. I Just think tf2c is kinda ass.
Florida #1
  Reply
#6
(05-21-2020, 02:29 PM)Catalyst Wrote: imagine if rgl just used tf2stadium on an official basis and incorporated it into the website, unfortunately i remember hearing something about them not being co operative. correct me if im wrong. Or rolling hl pugs into it idk. I Just think tf2c is kinda ass.

yeah thats my point if these people dont care then make your own, i already assumed RGL was ahead of this and ppl have confirmed it to me, which I think it's awesome because it's true that first experience counts for a lot and when ur first experience is the UGC website that u cant understand or getting yelled at on tf2center, it's not very fun. RGL 7s pugs are nice but it requires people to host these pugs, approved people. at least on TF2c anyone can hop and host a lobby
what the hell am i doing here?
  Reply
#7
The main problem I see with having our own pug system like tf2center or tf2stadium here is getting the people interested to moderate and upkeep the code / implement new features, etc. Afaik, there aren't a whole lot of people coding for rgl right now, and all of them are volunteers and have their own lives to worry about. But if we could pull it off and hold out for (hopefully) a larger player base and therefore (hopefully) more people interested in working on the site, it would definitely be a game changer. I'd be willing to help moderate it when I'm around, but I wouldn't know where to even start with coding something like this.

One thing about hlpugs that is slighly useless (because basically everyone knows each other there already) but might be good for a system like tf2center, is seeing the past x many seasons of experience of a player in the pug without having to go to their rgl page.

Along with that, I'd say that not allowing higher-level players to play is a bad idea, or at least it would suck for someone like me. I have experience in invite, can't snipe in adv, nobody ever picks me in hlpugs unless there are no other snipers added, and even then they still don't pick me a lot of the time -- so I stopped adding. I can't snipe in invite unless I lead a team (and I really don't want to do that). Basically what I'm saying is, there's nowhere for me to practice right now except Oprah's (lol) and TF2center (lol). I know some other snipers in a similar situation. And excluding people like that from the pugs would be annoying at best. TF2center is shitty practice, but at least I can play the game mode in some capacity that way.
  Reply
#8
I unironically really enjoyed TF2PL and how its pugging system was structured. It was the reason that when I got into competitive 6s, I had as much knowledge of the maps as UGC players who had seasons behind them. I never had to fear facing multiple plat players in a row because their elo system always(sometimes) balanced players based on their ELO level and number.

As a new player, it helped me learn most of the callouts, rollouts and strategies of all the 6s maps in the map pool. Most of my experiences were mixed but they were almost never frustration at getting rolled because the enemy team was filled with plat players like in tf2centers. Also there was almost never an abundance of players willing to play med as b4nny organized prizes(in keys) to the best med players throughout a season. I really do not remember much of TF2PL experience beside that but if players from TF2PL were filled with the players that play in RGL Pugs today, I would say it would be much more positive.

Of course not everything was perfect, there were lots of toxic players and once you got anything above open, it became harder to find anyone readying up and for actual lobbies to start. TF2PL only died because it lacked advertising, innovation by mods/admins, and was even forgotten by b4nny after like the first 5 seasons. However, with having the backup of RGL admins and advertising, it could be much bigger and help more new players to the scene. I am not an RGL Pugs regular but I have seen experienced players get frustrated and throw because they are forced to play with newbies while the newbies are frustrated because the experience players start throwing and is not what a competitive match is in their mind.

I personally think that if RGL ever starts its own pug system as you described, it should be 6s only at first. 6s can be a better platform to experiment on since it requires less player to start a lobby in, more players play 6s and its plat image is what new persons to the competitive scene are more familiar with rather than HL.
  Reply
#9
(05-21-2020, 04:44 PM)R4bbit l Tradeit.gg Wrote: more players play 6s and its plat image is what new persons to the competitive scene are more familiar with rather than HL.

I'm biased for obvious reasons, but is that true? I thought there were always at least as many HL players as 6s players, even throughout the decline of UGC and ESEA 6s, but I could be wrong. Either way, if nobody in the target audience has played competitive yet, HL is much closer to pubs than 6s is. Most familiarity in 6s at a low level would have to come from player POVs and casts available, while most familiarity in HL at a low level could be comparable to playing pubs to some extent, in addition to casts and player POVs available.

Not opposed to a 6s pugging system, I just always thought 6s was a bigger jump from pubs than HL. Could always do both if enough support is there. TF2center has both, after all.
  Reply
#10
Both at the beginning would great! 6s has a lot areas that can be easily ruin a player experience and a higher need for moderation compared to highlander.
I will always be a pyro main <3
  Reply
#11
(05-21-2020, 04:58 PM)Markers Wrote:
(05-21-2020, 04:44 PM)R4bbit l Tradeit.gg Wrote: more players play 6s and its plat image is what new persons to the competitive scene are more familiar with rather than HL.

I'm biased for obvious reasons, but is that true? I thought there were always at least as many HL players as 6s players, even throughout the decline of UGC and ESEA 6s, but I could be wrong. Either way, if nobody in the target audience has played competitive yet, HL is much closer to pubs than 6s is. Most familiarity in 6s at a low level would have to come from player POVs and casts available, while most familiarity in HL at a low level could be comparable to playing pubs to some extent, in addition to casts and player POVs available.

Not opposed to a 6s pugging system, I just always thought 6s was a bigger jump from pubs than HL. Could always do both if enough support is there. TF2center has both, after all.

Well it probably may not be true cause I was talking based on my bias, as when I started playing pugs, I had a better experience with the TF2PL 6s pugs than the TF2Center. I was also in a friend group that watched more 6s players than HL players. When I talked about the outlook of new players, I used myself as an example which I should have probably established because it does not speak to everyone. 

I just personally felt that jumping to 6s was not harder than HL due to all the POVs and casts I had already seen only for 6s. I still do not think RGL should introduce both formats at the same time cause one of them could kill the other. I based this on the success of RGL that could atrributed to them taking their time in introducing formats (7s->HL->6s) rather than release them at the same time.

I do not think a PUG system should have an aim of replicating pubs but HL does appeal to most newcomers as it does not have meta. I am fine with whichever format is used first, and if both, then amazing, but its up to RGL to decide what decision is the fastest or most safest in catching the player base of TF2 unfamiliar to comp.
  Reply
#12
im pretty sure this has actually been in development for awhile as a replacement for rgl pugs

   
  Reply
#13
(05-21-2020, 03:14 PM)Markers Wrote: seeing the past x many seasons of experience of a player in the pug without having to go to their rgl page.
hlpugs still shows the ugc seasons, not rgl, despite exa working on both (although he is busy doing 100 other things) and no one using ugc in the last 2 years. all the exp is outdated as hell and none of it is relevant anymore. iirc pug server 3 has been down for months, but ive never seen 54 people added up to where we could have C pugs
plug walk
  Reply
#14
C pugs happened in the first few days, then people stopped adding up so only invite players get picked now because you need to pick to win.
I will always be a pyro main <3
  Reply
#15
I 100% agree that a fundamental thing for growth in virtually anything is the ability to easily play it. If you can't easy jump into a comp tf2 with out a full commitment of a league, then it's hard to get that desire to play it.

Developing a pug system from scratch is not a simple endeavor. There have been multiple failed attempts to try to take on tf2c and they've been unsuccessful. To simple say "we need an easy to use pugging system and that'll fix the problem" is true to some degree, but the execution is what matters and that is a complex issue.

That said I can say that we have a team working on a pug system. I can't really say much more than that.

---
A few notes, our league page you pulled up is the format home page. People who are coming to rgl for the first time will see our more friendly front page
[Image: Dq30AgH.png]

Which has links to the overview of our different leagues, explanations of the different formats, and links to pick up games. 

Also during the regular league format page you show, when registration is open has a big orange button that links to the registration page. Which has a dedicated section on how to find a team to join.

----
Is this enough? No, of course not. There are many things we can do better to help players get onto teams. Help them learn the game, etc... Most of our recent website updates have been focusing on expanding functionality for managing the league and for more league functions. 


However, I think it'd be good to do a pass at the site and try to make it more user friendly for brand new players. We'll definitely use this thread to gather realistic ideas about things we can add to help make the onboarding process better.
  Reply
#16
I agree that simply putting it out there isn't really gonna kill tf2c, and it's about how you do it
what the hell am i doing here?
  Reply
#17
Just use hlpugs, the reason lower skilled players dont get picked is because there are only like 5 of them added at a time. if enough of you add, B pugs will happen.

side note someone shoudl help develop the site with nicell bc it gets a lot of bugs over time
  Reply
#18
(05-22-2020, 01:00 AM)pajaro Wrote: Just use hlpugs, the reason lower skilled players dont get picked is because there are only like 5 of them added at a time. if enough of you add, B pugs will happen.

side note someone shoudl help develop the site with nicell bc it gets a lot of bugs over time

At this point, hlpugs is simply too distant and unapproachable for the new players in question. It would be a better idea to implement a different pugging system or to create a lobbying based system like tf2c rather than a captaining system.
  Reply
#19
i dont see hlpugs as too distant and unapproachable. Just throw an @ in the official discord and make people play for A, B and fucking C pugs.
Lets just experiment throwing hlpugs into the crowd and see what happens with it.
#wno
  Reply
#20
(05-22-2020, 01:51 PM)jel Wrote: i dont see hlpugs as too distant and unapproachable. Just throw an @ in the official discord and make people play for A, B and fucking C pugs.
Lets just experiment throwing hlpugs into the crowd and see what happens with it.

i would like to point out that there were lots of unknowns that would add up to hlpugs constantly despite getting fatkidded often. now im seeing them on invite teams. the potential payoff is clearly worth it (assuming getting good and moving up are things that appeal to u) especially considering you have literally nothing to lose by adding up.

instead of getting pissy and leaving because you're a main player not getting picked when there are 20 invite players, why not ask your homies to add up? if more lower level players add up then more pugs happen and your stats go up. then people take notice and wow dude ur getting picked more thats crazy.
normal human
  Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)