• 3 Vote(s) - 3.33 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
koth_synthetic
#1
Hello There,

Koth_synthetic is a king of the hill map designed for competitive play. The map had both 6's and Hightlander testing during development and is made to be enjoyable for both casual and comp players. It reached second place in the Meet your Map competition and was played on the Experimental Highglander Cup. It mixes ideas from many maps played in comp, such as Product, Coalplant and Arctic. Any and all feedback is welcome and please go into as much detail as possible.

[Image: ?imw=637&imh=358&ima=fit&impolicy=Letter...erbox=true]

Tf2 Maps: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/synthetic.5573/
Workshop: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f...1549817316
Gamebanana: https://gamebanana.com/maps/202282
TeamfortressTV: http://www.teamfortress.tv/48356/koth-synthetic
  Reply
#2
Thanks for all the effort you've put in! It's definitely one of the more unique koth maps I've tested in HL!

My biggest issue with the map, currently, is that standing on the point is super undesirable for either team. The little cutouts to see lower is a nice touch in regards to that, but due to the near-total lack of vision you have on the point combined with the height disadvantage rewards both teams playing the garages/houses/bananas at all times. That's not to say players should be on point all the time regardless of circumstance, but if you think about Product, if the enemy sniper goes down when you have the point, there's no reason to /not/ hold on point until he respawns. It's the central point of the map for a reason, and controlling it should give you advantages. This same dynamic is true on Lakeside and Ashville, other HL staple maps, as well as some of the less popular maps, like cascade and warmtic (warmtic's issues come not from point design but from other places). It might not sound like a huge issue at first, because teams don't often hold on the point on those maps anyway, right?

It's true they don't, but it's not because they don't want to. Pushes on those maps are often determined by who has point presence in post-ubers, and the defending team wants to hold on the point (because it's the strongest location on the map), but can't because of the sniper. This creates a dynamic where both teams are constantly fighting for the point, not just for objective time but also for the advantages that physically controlling the space gives. The /safest/ place to hold point is never the /best/, and that's by design. On Synthetic, though, sitting in garage (be it yours or your opponents') tends to be both the best and safest place to hold point. It's also the best and safest place to push from, meaning that games devolve into both teams sitting in their garages, shooting spam at each other in a wet noodle fight until someone's pick classes/flank get enough of an advantage that it's worth it to actually walk onto point. Maybe you cap it, maybe you don't, but regardless of the outcome both teams retreat back into garage because there's no reason to be anywhere else. The defending team rarely feels any pressure in regards to holding ground; if an enemy demo starts walking on point on Lakeside, he's a huge threat because of how much damage he can deal while still maintaining a degree of safety if he doesn't get sniped. If an enemy demo walks onto the point on Synthetic, he'll get one 80 damage sticky off before getting railed from 4 different angles (only one of which he could actually see).

It's tricky to deal with the because the lower flanks introduce some novel gameplay as well; the maptest pug I played it in was extremely close with two high-level teams and we were flanking each other's combos because we could. It was a new feeling, it was fun, and it was working because no one knew what the meta was. Play this map for a full week of scrims, though, and I guarantee it'll get super stale, super fast because the rest of the map is so weak in comparison to garage that players are just going to congregate around it.

I don't know if there are any easy fixes to it, but the initial ones I'd suggest are shortening the decks that intrude over the point, restoring some vision and making the point a lot less chokey. (Re)moving the pack from garage would probably help as well, since it means players would have to leave if they want to get health. And as loathe as I am to say it, opening up some of the sightlines might be necessary to give an attacking sniper a few more options for putting pressure on defense. I'm not sure if widening or narrowing the garage exits would be beneficial or harmful, but moving the pack should be a must as should opening up the point.

I know it sounds like I'm just railing on the map over and over, but I do think the map has potential to be something very different in the rotation. Just needs a bit of work :p
  Reply
#3
(12-19-2018, 04:01 PM)Alto Wrote: *snip*

Thanks, I'll see what I can do to address these problems.
  Reply
#4
I really like this map even with the few issues it has and hope it's updates continue. Also gives off a nostalgic feel to me for some reason.

It was definitely the best of the three maps in the exp cup imo.
  Reply
#5
Alto is correct. I helped lead a team during the recent cup, and we went into synthetic without a strongly defined plan. We lost a round or two before we tried playing in garage, and once I decided to have everyone stand in garage between rounds, it turned into a completely different game. No longer did we ever feel pressured to act while we had the point, because we could just stand in garage and wait for them to come to us. No longer did we ever all get spammed at once and lose positioning because of it, because we could just stand in garage. No longer did we get surprised by flanks onto our combo, because we had long sightlines in every relevant direction, and massive height/choke advantage on the flank route from under. The match devolved into us winning a midfight and grinding the other team slowly into dust. Every time they managed to cap, it was at such massive cost to them that we could just retake after the spawn wave came in, and the rest of the match finished without them finding a counter to our innovative strategy of "stand still in this one specific place."

The rest of the map is under an insane amount of flank pressure/threat compared to garage, and while we weren't holding there, the match was messy, and we were losing pretty bad, but it was fun and involved a lot of fights popping up even when one team didn't have a distinct advantage. So my suggestion would probably be to improve how people can flank into garage, making it a safer place to hold against snipers, but dangerous vs flankers and spies. Maybe widen the area coming from under, add another entrance/lower the distance between the back entrance and where people hold so that spies and soldiers can do more work from behind, there's a lot of stuff to be done. Regardless, the map legitimately has a lot of potential and I think that if this garage thing gets solved, then this could end up being on a lot of team's lists of favorite maps to play.
  Reply
#6
New version, check it yo!

Thread: https://tf2maps.net/threads/synthetic.35298/

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/synthetic....sion=17896
  Reply
#7
For anyone curious: we tested the new version last night, and it's a step in the right direction. Synthetic rc2 had the issues of a) the point was too punishing to play on, b) garage was too good to hold in. Rc3 fixed the first issue, but didn't do enough towards addressing the second issue, so gameplay ended up similar; even though the point is better is play on, it still isn't good enough to beat holding in garage. It turns out that fixing the point also opened up some nasty sightlines that sniper couldn't be easily pushed out of, but this is more of a problem arising from how garage is played around rather than the sightlines themselves being unbearable. Current changes are looking at making garage less rewarding to play in, and hopefully making the sightlines more tolerable to play into in the process.
  Reply
#8
Super Big Thanks to Alto and his crew for testing and feedback. A new version of the map is available, check it out and let me know what you think.

Thread: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/synthetic.5573/updates

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/synthetic....sion=17972
  Reply
#9
Looks awesome. I plan to update the HLPugs map pool with this latest version. Thanks for addressing the major concerns of the map in HL play.
  Reply
#10
After more competitive testing, RC5 is ready!

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/synthetic....sion=18156
  Reply
#11
(04-08-2019, 05:59 AM)MegaPieManPHD Wrote: After more competitive testing, RC5 is ready!

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/synthetic....sion=18156

Anywhere I can look at the change list? I really liked what u did with the r4 changes
IM ETERNALLY PISSED
  Reply
#12
(04-08-2019, 09:14 AM)blue99 Wrote:
(04-08-2019, 05:59 AM)MegaPieManPHD Wrote: After more competitive testing, RC5 is ready!

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/synthetic....sion=18156

Anywhere I can look at the change list? I really liked what u did with the r4 changes

yeah, sorry about that. You can check out the thread on tf2maps

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/synthetic.5573/updates
  Reply
#13
After playing this map (rc5) in the EXP cup, my teams feedback is that overall the map was pretty good, different from other koth maps for sure. Major things I was not a fan of was the changing opaque windows, I think they should either be fully transparent or fully opaque, it is just weird to play around otherwise. Additionally, something about the control point changes from rc4 to rc5 broke the wrap assassin, to where it can no longer be thrown over point without exploding.
  Reply
#14
I enjoyed the map last time it was in the exp cup, and I still enjoyed it this time around. Its different from almost every other koth map in that you really don't have a set area to fight/hold in like you do on maps like product or coalplant/ashville. Maybe thats just due to its new-ness, but we found a couple different holds depending on how we wanted to approach a situation.

I like how garage isn't as dominant to hold as it was last time it was in the cup (I think that was rc2?) though its still a good spot, its not nearly as strong as it was before. We found it actually possible to hold on the point, which I know was a complaint from last time, and I found it way easier to rotate for health and ammo, even as heavy. Overall I do think it would be a good map to include into the regular league, probably replacing ashville if I had to pick a map. if an rc6 were to be made before that though the only thing that I ran into was some clipping issues on the point itself where I couldn't walk over it revved. I had to unrev and jump just to get over an extremely small gap in some places. Sniper is still dominant on the map, though not nearly as much as last time.
Inspired — Whenever Pain Seer becomes untapped, reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to that card's converted mana cost.

Heavy main for the IM team - team
  Reply
#15
right now, point is flat and the elbow/sides/garage are lowered, but i would make them flat and just raise point. also, easier to see through the point in under, that way you cant be owned by someone walking up your side ramp and its not easy to see them
plug walk
  Reply
#16
(04-29-2019, 11:52 AM)perenne Wrote: right now, point is flat and the elbow/sides/garage are lowered, but i would make them flat and just raise point. also, easier to see through the point in under, that way you cant be owned by someone walking up your side ramp and its not easy to see them

raising point chokes the everloving christ out of the actual point area and leads to some really wonky geometry with the windows if you raise it any more than knee level. raising the point was considered to block off the garage-garage sightline (which made the map play like absolute ass) but too many problems arose from raising it so garage was lowered instead, forcing snipers to play dangerously close to the entrance of garage and therefore in spam angles (esp from window) if they want to get an angle into the opposing garage. if garage is flat and snipers can stand on the back wall of garage and see literally anything, all gameplay grinds to a screeching halt because he's impossible dislodge from there

Papa Peach Wrote:Major things I was not a fan of was the changing opaque windows, I think they should either be fully transparent or fully opaque, it is just weird to play around otherwise.

Can you expand on this a little bit? Wasn't able to watch any of the synthetic matches to see how the windows actually played, so if you could go a little more into what ways/how the windows were bad to play around, it'd be very helpful.
  Reply
#17
As for the windos @Alto

Being able to see thru your own top left window made it really eady to snipe from. Made svs easier for the one behind the window and makes it easier to kill people crossing.
  Reply
#18
(04-29-2019, 03:00 PM)jetz Wrote: As for the windos @Alto

Being able to see thru your own top left window made it really eady to snipe from. Made svs easier for the one behind the window and makes it easier to kill people crossing.

That's somewhat by design; during map testing a really troublesome forward hold was developing where the defending team's sniper would hold right outside of the pushing team's window and deny them entrance to their garage, with the the rest of the combo playing in or near window to deny the pushers their own left side, as well. the dynamic windows were added as a way to help counter that as well as giving the pushing team more cover. If it's really terrible to play around they're fine to be removed, but from what you just said it sounds they're doing their job of accelerating gameplay.
  Reply
#19
Personally I have no problem with the dynamic windows, maybe it was just how my team played the map / my lack of experience on it but the window felt like the best place to snipe from most of the time
  Reply
#20
I know you guys are more focused on competitive play but a Halloween version of this map called Sinthetic is now up on the workshop for anyone interested: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f...1878543768
  Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)