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PL Vigil
#41
Overall, I am most happy with how second and last play. Third I do agree has some improvement, and I am thinking that I could try moving the point just around the corner. The only problem I see here is that this would encourage a passive defence, when I find it much more enjoyable to both play and watch a defence that is aggressive. Another alternative is to encourage the defence to forward hold the point. For this I ask you all - what would make you want to forward hold on third?

Additionally with first, I understand that it is generally taken as a throwaway point, although I have seen at times teams hard hold it and not allow the other team to cap first. What prevents you from holding first, and are there any changes you’d like to see to make holding first more viable?
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#42
There's no incentive to committing to a long term hold on 3rd. If your hold fails and you wipe then blue takes 3rd and then take a last for free, and last is far to valuable of a point to give up like that, also there's no like actual aggressive spot for teams to aggressively hold on 3rd

As for what you could do to make it a viable point to hold, I have no clue
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#43
(06-26-2019, 07:20 PM)theatreTECHIE | AU.RGL.gg Wrote: Overall, I am most happy with how second and last play. Third I do agree has some improvement, and I am thinking that I could try moving the point just around the corner. The only problem I see here is that this would encourage a passive defence, when I find it much more enjoyable to both play and watch a defence that is aggressive. Another alternative is to encourage the defence to forward hold the point. For this I ask you all - what would make you want to forward hold on third?

Additionally with first, I understand that it is generally taken as a throwaway point, although I have seen at times teams hard hold it and not allow the other team to cap first. What prevents you from holding first, and are there any changes you’d like to see to make holding first more viable?

addressing first - it's just such an awkward point to hard hold because of the house that is so easy for blue to sweep through. it's almost impossible for red to split their attention between tracks, the hill, and the house flank. that's why holding at the log is not feasible. every team holds behind the point because 2nd is such a good point to hold and there's no easy way to back out of holding 1st if you intend to actually pressure the point. if you got rid of the house flank altogether, I'd say it'd be reasonable to try to hold first.

with third - there's no situation that I would want to forward hold in this iteration of the map. I would never want to back out of 2nd early because it's such a good point to hold. usually the only way a team loses the 2nd point is when they lose 4-5 players, i've never seen a team back out of 2nd when down 2 players because it's still holdable then. Im not sure why you think 3rd is an "aggressive" defense currently because the hold consists of the entire combo holding around the corner and the flank trying to support them there with the gun almost behind their spawn. It's already a passive defense and it's really not possible to do a viable forward hold so there's no reason to not put the point a little closer to the red spawn because that would mean red doesnt have to keep peeking the corner over and over into spam. At the higher level of play in my experience every good holding position can both deny cart time easily and be able to escape easily. With the point so close to the top of the hill, 3rd doesnt meet both of those standards at the same time.
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#44
Yo question is it possible to make the defense spawn doors for 2nd and 3rd unlocked only from the outside so that you can back up into spawn even after you lose those points? Just seems like a simple solution to prevent getting utterly shitrolled, as often times it can be hard for red to transition 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to last due to how quickly blu can gain momentum. There have been a lot of times where someone stayed in a split second too late and got locked out and died lol.
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#45
(06-27-2019, 02:07 AM)wax Wrote: Yo question is it possible to make the defense spawn doors for 2nd and 3rd unlocked only from the outside so that you can back up into spawn even after you lose those points? Just seems like a simple solution to prevent getting utterly shitrolled, as often times it can be hard for red to transition 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to last due to how quickly blu can gain momentum. There have been a lot of times where someone stayed in a split second too late and got locked out and died lol.

I’d rather have the doors work like swiftwater, where the doors lock after 5 seconds or so, as otherwise the spy could go around and open the doors for the team, which wouldn’t be fun to play against.
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#46
(06-27-2019, 02:22 AM)theatreTECHIE Wrote:
(06-27-2019, 02:07 AM)wax Wrote: Yo question is it possible to make the defense spawn doors for 2nd and 3rd unlocked only from the outside so that you can back up into spawn even after you lose those points? Just seems like a simple solution to prevent getting utterly shitrolled, as often times it can be hard for red to transition 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to last due to how quickly blu can gain momentum. There have been a lot of times where someone stayed in a split second too late and got locked out and died lol.

I’d rather have the doors work like swiftwater, where the doors lock after 5 seconds or so, as otherwise the spy could go around and open the doors for the team, which wouldn’t be fun to play against.

This is a great idea imo, especially when getting out of 3rd to attempt a last hold, so the defensive med, engie, etc. don't have to completely bait the rest of their team when 3rd is almost capped.

Since half of the points on this map are more difficult to hold than most other highlander payload maps, I think it makes sense to allow defensive teams an easier transition from point to point than other maps as well.

Also, I want to see defensive snipers peek 2nd shutter 5s after it's capped for dumb frags like they do on swift 3rd.
save me
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#47
After the week's scrims and matches I'm happy to say I finally "got" the rhythm of Vigil, and I do actually quite enjoy the map now.

(06-26-2019, 07:20 PM)theatreTECHIE Wrote: Additionally with first, I understand that it is generally taken as a throwaway point, although I have seen at times teams hard hold it and not allow the other team to cap first. What prevents you from holding first, and are there any changes you’d like to see to make holding first more viable?

The indefensibility of first mostly stems from the lack of safe retreats for RED: there's too large a distance between safe positions and aggressive positions, either RED commits to full aggression or they play passively and lose out on the ability to take advantageous fights. The closest I've been to approximating that aggression/passivity balance has been roughly this setup:
[Image: b51db5ed0a.jpg]

One big reason why the aggressive hold by log doesn't provide much defense is the lack of a roof or other protection from bombs. BLU Demos are able to simply double-sticky jump into the skybox and rain stickies from above with the Base Jumper, and the sheer verticality of it makes it difficult for RED to shoot him out of the sky before he deals serious, crippling  damage.
[Image: d012a42419.jpg]

Compare this to Upward's first, which provides RED with adequate cover from all sides when ducking out of a fight, while still not being terribly far away from the front lines.
[Image: 344e3947a1.jpg]
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#48
i enjoy these illustrations flare thank you, i particularly like "buurp whiskey" and "pew pew"
plug walk
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#49
pass the whiskey
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#50
Would having a structure between the two buildings as shown below detract from or add to the point? It would have clipping above, and I would probably change up the skybox around first so that stickies wouldn't be able to be shot over the top of the buildings (like how the walls between first and second have skybox above them).
This would restrict the demo jumps that are possible, although I'm wondering if there are negative impacts of having this structure there.

[Image: K7bL3qS.jpg]
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#51
Personally i really like that the map is hard to defend and that it moves quickly. Im a big fan of maps to go quickly
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#52
There are the two main issues with holding first that have been mentioned, the high bombs being too effective and having to cross an absolutely free sightline from an offensive perspective to get out to 2nd.

I think there's also a more general issue as well, which is if you hard hold first in the standard way it's done right now, if offense takes a fight with you from main and you start losing, your back is up to the cliffside instead of the way you're going to be backing out if things go south. So then you have to spend a decent amount of the uber getting to your way out to 2nd as well or be trapped in. If you can win the fight decisively on defense, even with longer spawns, that's cool. But it's not worth it to gamble that with relatively even teams.

I'm trying to think of another payload point where this kind of scenario applies and people still hold the point. The closest I can think of is Borneo 3rd? But that point is much more holdable, and you generally have time to set up on the next point, even if a lot of people die.
save me
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#53
the first time flare high-bombed my gun on first in scrims, i literally could not find him in the goddamn sky. the mayonnaise bomb is very strong on this map.

aside from that, it's a shame that such a big portion of the map is made-up of giveaway points (sidenote: i think third can be held for a good few minutes but it's way too easy to eek the cart over the cap that it's not worth the investment). most of the time on this map is spent either fighting to get out of/holding tunnel or pushing/defending last. that being said, i don't think the map is bad by any means, and it's a fun change of pace to have quicker gameplay on a payload map. while the map felt less perfunctory in meta (at least on engineer), the way the spawn doors lock and the existence of vast flank routes makes the map pretty hard to hold solid ground in a lot of places.
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#54
Pretty sure this is the most common complaint already but I might as well add my voice in. My biggest problem with this map overall is that third is hard to hold. The ridge area in the back of third is essentially unused in my experience because it is much more rewarding to simply put your entire team on cart which guarantees it gets up the rollback zone 90% of the time. Since the spawns lock when you cap, the point is essentially won once its up the rollback zone because leaving late on third is a deathwish due to the big boy sightline you have to cross. I like some of the suggestions in the thread already, like adding a second hill for the cart. One thing that could be an idea would be to move the tracks a little further from the wall so that red demos can spam it without exposing themselves too much, because as is you can get the cart up by hugging the wall and the red demo has to peak your whole team and like 3 sniper sightlines to shoot the cart before its up the hill. Flare was pretty spot on with the reasons hard holding 1st sucks. Sac's and sightlines are too strong on that point to risk compromising your second hold.
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#55
Finally doing some work on Vigil again. At the moment I'm looking at the first point, in particular addressing the following:
 - Allowing red to back out of the forward hold in a more safe way, encouraging people to hold forward
 - Removing the rocks that snipers have consistently found a way up onto

For this I've added a new building that has a walkway with a drop down to behind the chicken-wire fence. The linked imgur album has images of this structure: https://imgur.com/a/pUXd3Ay

I'm after thoughts about this structure. If people are interested in testing this version (which also has the change that red can back out through spawns up to 5 seconds after the corresponding point has been captured) also say, as I can run a full compile on this version for testing and get it up somewhere for a test.
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#56
(09-08-2019, 08:42 AM)theatreTECHIE Wrote: Finally doing some work on Vigil again. At the moment I'm looking at the first point, in particular addressing the following:
 - Allowing red to back out of the forward hold in a more safe way, encouraging people to hold forward
 - Removing the rocks that snipers have consistently found a way up onto

For this I've added a new building that has a walkway with a drop down to behind the chicken-wire fence. The linked imgur album has images of this structure: https://imgur.com/a/pUXd3Ay

I'm after thoughts about this structure. If people are interested in testing this version (which also has the change that red can back out through spawns up to 5 seconds after the corresponding point has been captured) also say, as I can run a full compile on this version for testing and get it up somewhere for a test.
Thanks theatre!
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#57
I quite like this change, I think this helps with one of my major issues with the map's start/stop/start/stop gameplay. I'd be curious as to see if its enough to change my opinion on the map
Whenever Pain Seer becomes untapped, reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to that card's converted mana cost.

Spy main for the IM team - Snapped-Back Gaming
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#58
On feedback, I've remade the change a bit, and now the route for RED to back out of A goes into lobby through a new building. There's additionally a new sky-bridge on first which blocks the demo-bomb tactic. I've also added a wall to the cliffside of B, removed one of the entrances into C as well as extended the corner of the porch out a bit, and on last I remade a bit of the flank near RED's spawn. The spawn doors for RED backing out also stay unlocked for 5 seconds after 2nd or 3rd have been capped.

I have two test versions of the map at the moment. One has a no-build on the hut which replaces the old sniper rocks on A (pl_vigil_rc6_test3), and one which does not have this no-build (pl_vigil_rc6_test4). I'm after feedback on if people want the hut to have a no-build, and also on if people think 5 seconds is a good time for the spawn doors to stay unlocked, or if it should be more or less. The downloads are bz2 files.

Some of the prop fade distances on this version will be off, especially around last. If you notice any, feel free to send screenshots, and I'll try to fix them all for the release of rc6.

Screenshots of the changes are available here.
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#59
(10-01-2019, 11:44 PM)theatreTECHIE Wrote: On feedback, I've remade the change a bit, and now the route for RED to back out of A goes into lobby through a new building. There's additionally a new sky-bridge on first which blocks the demo-bomb tactic. I've also added a wall to the cliffside of B, removed one of the entrances into C as well as extended the corner of the porch out a bit, and on last I remade a bit of the flank near RED's spawn. The spawn doors for RED backing out also stay unlocked for 5 seconds after 2nd or 3rd have been capped.

I have two test versions of the map at the moment. One has a no-build on the hut which replaces the old sniper rocks on A (pl_vigil_rc6_test3), and one which does not have this no-build (pl_vigil_rc6_test4). I'm after feedback on if people want the hut to have a no-build, and also on if people think 5 seconds is a good time for the spawn doors to stay unlocked, or if it should be more or less. The downloads are bz2 files.

Some of the prop fade distances on this version will be off, especially around last. If you notice any, feel free to send screenshots, and I'll try to fix them all for the release of rc6.

Screenshots of the changes are available here.

The change in the second one is an awful idea if I'm seeing it right, if the combo backs up through there from holding forward I'd personally call to not cap, that way they're literally trapped in a room they cannot get out of because the gates don't open until you cap.

Trap them in and take ground or Wipe them real quick then cap means easy 2nd point
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#60
(10-02-2019, 06:06 AM)Dimento.knd Wrote:
(10-01-2019, 11:44 PM)theatreTECHIE Wrote: On feedback, I've remade the change a bit, and now the route for RED to back out of A goes into lobby through a new building. There's additionally a new sky-bridge on first which blocks the demo-bomb tactic. I've also added a wall to the cliffside of B, removed one of the entrances into C as well as extended the corner of the porch out a bit, and on last I remade a bit of the flank near RED's spawn. The spawn doors for RED backing out also stay unlocked for 5 seconds after 2nd or 3rd have been capped.

I have two test versions of the map at the moment. One has a no-build on the hut which replaces the old sniper rocks on A (pl_vigil_rc6_test3), and one which does not have this no-build (pl_vigil_rc6_test4). I'm after feedback on if people want the hut to have a no-build, and also on if people think 5 seconds is a good time for the spawn doors to stay unlocked, or if it should be more or less. The downloads are bz2 files.

Some of the prop fade distances on this version will be off, especially around last. If you notice any, feel free to send screenshots, and I'll try to fix them all for the release of rc6.

Screenshots of the changes are available here.

The change in the second one is an awful idea if I'm seeing it right, if the combo backs up through there from holding forward I'd personally call to not cap, that way they're literally trapped in a room they cannot get out of because the gates don't open until you cap.

Trap them in and take ground or Wipe them real quick then cap means easy 2nd point

The top door of that building has been removed, so RED are able to back out through there.
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