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KotH Cascade
#1
Hi!  

Cascade is a koth map that emphasizes open spaces and height variation while maintaining class balance for casual and competitive play. The layout is inspired by the design of classic koth maps like Viaduct and Ashville while introducing several unique twists on the gamemode’s conventions. 

Cascade has been played in multiple seasons of Highlander in UGC, and is about to be played for the second time in RGL HL. I'm very interested to hear how players' thoughts on the map have developed now that it has seen extensive league play. 

[Image: uY4opMi.jpg]

Current version: RC1a


Download

Workshop

TF2Maps.net

Screenshots
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#2
nice,
what the hell am i doing here?
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#3
this map is fun
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#4
I think the map looks like it would play well, but my team is barely willing to touch the map because we have to get a med ringer. The map runs almost as badly as Suijin and our medic just literally cannot handle playing the map where they can play every other map in Highlander rotation just fine.
I don't think the issue is the map being open, as our medic can play Lakeside just fine. There is something fucked about Cascade.
Podgy, in our discord, also mentioned FPS issues on cascade with a 9900k and a 2080ti. I'm on a 3900X and a 5700XT and drop from ~144-300 FPS on every other map, including lakeside(where I'm most likely to dip to the 130-160 range) to as low as 100 FPS on cascade, being a noticeable drop because I play 144hz.
Starski in the RGL discord as well mentioned going from 60 FPS to 15 FPS while being fine on other maps.
I think the map from a game flow perspective is at least ready to be played, but from an ability to be in a server with 18 other players perspective, not when we're going to have to get a med ringer every time we touch the map.

I don't mean ill towards you or towards the map, as something that isn't lakeside is something to be celebrated, but as is I'd like to be able to have the entirety of both teams in a server not have issues with being able to exist on the map first.

Edit: Probably didn't convey it properly in the initial bulk of the post, but I actually think this map is way better than lakeside and would be happy to be able to just not play lakeside again as long as this map gets better tbh

Another edit: Turns out patrick can play the map FPS-wise, but was complaining about significant drops. He just has some sort of unhealthy hatred for the map on top of that, so make fun of him lmao.
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#5
(01-18-2020, 11:11 PM)sunder Wrote: I think the map looks like it would play well, but my team is barely willing to touch the map because we have to get a med ringer. The map runs almost as badly as Suijin and our medic just literally cannot handle playing the map where they can play every other map in Highlander rotation just fine.
I don't think the issue is the map being open, as our medic can play Lakeside just fine. There is something fucked about Cascade.
Podgy, in our discord, also mentioned FPS issues on cascade with a 9900k and a 2080ti. I'm on a 3900X and a 5700XT and drop from ~144-300 FPS on every other map, including lakeside(where I'm most likely to dip to the 130-160 range) to as low as 100 FPS on cascade, being a noticeable drop because I play 144hz.
Starski in the RGL discord as well mentioned going from 60 FPS to 15 FPS while being fine on other maps.
I think the map from a game flow perspective is at least ready to be played, but from an ability to be in a server with 18 other players perspective, not when we're going to have to get a med ringer every time we touch the map.

I don't mean ill towards you or towards the map, as something that isn't lakeside is something to be celebrated, but as is I'd like to be able to have the entirety of both teams in a server not have issues with being able to exist on the map first.

Edit: Probably didn't convey it properly in the initial bulk of the post, but I actually think this map is way better than lakeside and would be happy to be able to just not play lakeside again as long as this map gets better tbh



^^ +1 to what sunder says
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#6
While I realize that decisions regarding the map pool should really not try to accommodate the lowest echelon of PC setups, the fact that this map is the only map I've ever played in highlander that absolutely destroys my FPS and renders the game nearly unplayable, while the game is playable on every other map with my setup, should warrant it being removed at least until the map is optimized more (especially since I'm apparently not the only one with these issues).

Yes pyro is meme class but if I fear turning around because the game goes to shit there's an issue at hand.

tl;dr i miss lakeside
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#7
[Image: ZyztVvl.png]

[Image: Mww7jiR.png]

[Image: Dc3D9k4.png]

These are the survey results that were also launched with the Season 5 announcement about 3 weeks ago. It has also been stated that Lakeside and Cascade would be alternated each season in the past articles. The premise here is to introduce a form of variety in the map pool, since there was also negative community feedback, when we ran the same map pool from season to season. It is not to say that the FPS optimization issues are not legitimate, since it is a concern of some individuals. That being said, with how increasingly late it is in the offseason and with the season approaching, any other map changes to the map pool would have to be made sparingly.
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#8
My point about missing lakeside was mostly in jest (and also more due to the fact that I haven't played since ugc s24 and it feels like I've only scrimmed 3 maps since then lol). I haven't really kept up with community sentiment since then, so if people want koth rotated there's not much I can argue with there. I do agree that it is probably too late at this point, but I am glad to hear that the FPS optimization issues are at the very least known.

Also no hard feelings @map creator I just like to bitch and moan.
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#9
standing on top of the sandbags and barrels to the right of red spawn give massive fps drops
moving away from them gives me like ~170 fps and I get 60-70 fps standing on them
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#10
the map in general is an FPS drop
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#11
[Image: ZPUshuU.png]

‾\_(ツ)_/‾
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#12
has the worst FPS by far for any map, I have a decent GPU and CPU to boot but I see consistent drops below 100~ FPS. Makes me very sad when I uber and my frames drop to 55~ Sad pls fix
Angel
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#13
just remove the waterfalls and whatever the fuck is happening below the capture point, it can't be that hard
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#14
map looks great, also i dont get any frame drops so theres obv no problem here B)
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#15
this map is sick
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#16
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#17
That's not even the issue, as the waterfalls do not cause the problem (seeing as I come from a community where optimizations are important and we have a few maps in said community where there are more than 4 models being drawn of the waterfall at one instance), more so, it doesn't help us all looking at over 26 occluders on both sides. Those things are causing the frames drops the worst, for they do not correctly block off the models we draw.
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#18
If this map is going to be played in future seasons of RGL, it's going to require major optimization improvements. The layout of the map is good and it gives a fresh feel for KotH, but it feels like a lot of the details were rushed.
Like Sunder mentioned, I have a 9900k and a 2080TI. I should not be dropping to 80-90fps during a midfight even if I am streaming. I am not maxing out my GPU or CPU doing so. I play on masterconfig medium graphics with a lot of things turned off completely. I shouldn't need a TITAN RTX and a Threadripper 3990X to play a TF2 map at 200fps.
Aside from general optimizations for performance, the actual collision/hit boxes on the map are just atrocious. There are certain sightlines that look like they are normal sightlines and a collision box for a rock just extends 1ft past its render.

Here are a couple examples clipped from my stream.
https://clips.twitch.tv/SmokyPoliteArtichokeCmonBruh
https://clips.twitch.tv/EagerUglyMonkeyDAESuppy

Here is a screenshot of when I clicked for the 2nd clip. Even if I missed, he shot as well. One of us should've been dead
[Image: PQxZwye.jpg]

I value those who create maps with competitive TF2 in mind, but at the same time I feel like those designers need to keep in mind that not everyone has a $2k+ computer. I like this map and I hope it gets refined. If not, then support will definitely drop for the map.
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#19
As for the waterfalls, the issue isn't the prop_dynamic of the waterfalls, but I do notice a a bit of spam with info_particle_system with the name field containing waterfall_rocksplash, which may be the cause to any lag at the waterfalls themselves. As for the above picture, vphysics cannot be helped, the map maker would need to remove the vphysics on it and cover it with a block bullets to make it feel more accurate if such were to occur. Yes, I decompiled the map my own end, I do so to learn about other's mapping styles as well as possible fixings for maps, it was the only way to edit Ashville anyways.
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#20
Quote:As for the above picture, vphysics cannot be helped, the map maker would need to remove the vphysics on it and cover it with a block bullets to make it feel more accurate if such were to occur.
If you are going to make a competitive map, then these are things that cannot be overlooked. If you're going to peek an angle that looks open, it should be open for shooting. The issues with the rocks are issues we used to have with Product until it was brought up and fixed.
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