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Season 2 Discussion
#21
(12-06-2018, 02:46 PM)zuchima Wrote: Exactly, they have different niches. Comparing the scorch shot to the reserve shooter is absurd.
I was comparing them based on the fact that they both do there job better then stock, the regular flare gun, while it does critical damage isnt nearly as good as scorch shot as it isnt as spammable and is just worse for the pyro meta nowadays.
IM ETERNALLY PISSED
#22
Shotgun>Flare>Reserve Shooter>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Scorch Shot>>>>>>>>>>Detonator.

If your pyro runs the last two for more than 5% of the match they should be cut.
I will always be a pyro main <3
#23
(12-11-2018, 01:08 AM)Arzt Hispanian Wrote: Shotgun>Flare>Reserve Shooter>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Scorch Shot>>>>>>>>>>Detonator.

If your pyro runs the last two for more than 5% of the match they should be cut.

Except with phlog
#24
(12-10-2018, 04:16 PM)blue99 Wrote:
(12-06-2018, 02:46 PM)zuchima Wrote: Exactly, they have different niches. Comparing the scorch shot to the reserve shooter is absurd.
I was comparing them based on the fact that they both do there job better then stock, the regular flare gun, while it does critical damage isnt nearly as good as scorch shot as it isnt as spammable and is just worse for the pyro meta nowadays.

This makes no sense
#25
(12-11-2018, 11:00 AM)Moose In A Suit Wrote:
(12-11-2018, 01:08 AM)Arzt Hispanian Wrote: Shotgun>Flare>Reserve Shooter>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Scorch Shot>>>>>>>>>>Detonator.

If your pyro runs the last two for more than 5% of the match they should be cut.

Except with phlog

Correct!
I will always be a pyro main <3
#26
(12-11-2018, 01:08 AM)Arzt Hispanian Wrote: Shotgun>Flare>Reserve Shooter>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Scorch Shot>>>>>>>>>>Detonator.

If your pyro runs the last two for more than 5% of the match they should be cut.
I'd rather use the Scorch shot over Reserve Shooter and the Detonator over both Reserve Shooter and scorch lmao, plus the reserve shooter is so useless, the panic attack is much better.
succ me 
#27
Oh man I forgot about the panic attack lol.
I will always be a pyro main <3
#28
remove all pyro primaries
#29
(12-11-2018, 12:26 PM)duck Wrote:
(12-10-2018, 04:16 PM)blue99 Wrote:
(12-06-2018, 02:46 PM)zuchima Wrote: Exactly, they have different niches. Comparing the scorch shot to the reserve shooter is absurd.
I was comparing them based on the fact that they both do there job better then stock, the regular flare gun, while it does critical damage isnt nearly as good as scorch shot as it isnt as spammable and is just worse for the pyro meta nowadays.

This makes no sense

It makes sense in my mind because I think any flare gun is useless,but the only good use it has is to spam snipers. and in that department scorch shot is blatantly better then stock flare gun. My point was that its similar to the prenerf reserve that it was just better for pyro then itss stock counterpart. But i dont think it should be banned because if ur using scorch shot u arent using shotgun lol. however scorch shot >>>>>>>>>>>>> flare gun IMO
IM ETERNALLY PISSED
#30
idk anyone who only uses the flare guns to spam snipers
#31
If you can aim the flare gun is the best of compared to the others by a huge margin.
I will always be a pyro main <3
#32
where are all the lft posts for invite
#33
(12-12-2018, 12:22 PM)Arzt Hispanian Wrote: If you can aim the flare gun is the best of compared to the others by a huge margin.

Yeah once they brought back the flare punching it does seem to be better than the shotgun unless spies go back into spycicle meta again.
#34
Flare punching is my absolute favorite thing to do in tf2
I will always be a pyro main <3
#35
Quote:If a player’s ping causes the game to be unplayable for other players (e.g. their character is constantly jumping around, etc...), that player may be blocked from that regions competitions.”

This is a rule that has been in the RGL.gg rulebook for many years now. In an online competitive league, lag and ping can be factors in the overall outcome of a match. We unfortunately do not have the resources necessary to have a LAN to counter these drawbacks of online play. However, it is not to say that a player’s net settings can be instrumental in the overall enjoyment of the other team that is playing against the individual. Players that are warping, teleporting, or stuttering across the map can not only create a disadvantage to those playing against them, but also can hurt the enjoyment of the players participating in the match.

Furthermore, this hurts the integrity of a league that both operates online and tries to enact fair rules and guidelines in its competition. With the past season, we had run into several issues with teams or players that were visibly lagging across the map. There is already precedence there with us blocking players from playing in the North American region. It should be noted that it is not the league’s responsibility to accommodate the players with issues such as high choke or clear warping issues during a sanctioned RGL match. Going forward into Season 2, this will likely be enforced more heavily.

Please let us know if you have any questions regarding this, since this is something that plan to go through with.
#36
The scorch shot might be the best thing for good pyros right now because it lets them output spam damage while staying in position to deny bombers, its annoying but perfect for super combocentric pyros like billysaurus. The only reason the danger sheild is good right now is because the scorch shot/ detonator is good, I would say neither calls for a ban. Most things in this game are in a balanced state, its neither over centralizing, nor does it give pyros who have it a complete unfair advantage over pyros who dont. Wanting to ban the darwins because it protects the sniper from pyro, is like wanting to ban the modern razorback for protecting the sniper from spy.
#37
The only invite Pyro who used the Scorch Shot as their main secondary weapon had a 90% winrate and won the division. Coincidence? It could be, but...
#38
Hot take:

while it's a different gamemode, playing against froyo in 7s with arekk using scorch shot really opened my eyes to the possibility of the weapon. in terms of sheer power, the scorch shot loses to shotgun, flare, and even det, but its a mismatch of needs. in the same way that the blutsauger has more raw power as a primary for medic, but you use the crossbow because medic doesn't need offensive power, a team with true top-invite talent doesn't need their pyro to have fragging power. It exists as a defensive class, and the protective capabilities of the class are all built into the flamethrower. Again, assuming a top level team, you'll always have a scout or a heavy with your medic so the pyro doesn't need the raw firepower because those classes are going to do a better job of it regardless. You can reflect projectiles, stuff ubers and catch spies with only a flamethrower, and there are better classes in tf2 to kill the things on your combo after that. the scorch shot is powerful because it allows pyros to contribute in places where they normally wouldnt, be it in spam, or flank fights.

when you're playing against froyo in 7s, the mere fact that arekk's knocking buffs off of scouts and ruining crit heals is enough of an advantage that b4nny and blaze can take advantage of, and while you can argue that the flare/det do it just as well, it's the easiest weapon to do it with and the hardest to dodge. Arzt said "if you can aim the default flare is the best", but that's only for killing people. Pyro's job in HL is not killing people. It's a protective class, and the fact that it's able to make a sizable contribution to offensive fights (and if you try to say '30 hp isn't a sizable contribution' then i'm going to laugh at you) while barely giving up any of its defensive capabilities is why the weapon can be so strong. Wish literally just said it, Billy ran scorch shot all season playing on a team with FROYO players and managed to go almost undefeated this season. it's not a definite answer and correlation doesn't imply causation, but it's still a correlation nonetheless and the fact he did on a team with, to quote myself, "true top-invite talent" only lends further credence to that. If you rate b4nny and arekk as equal scouts with a 50% 1v1 rate when both are equal hp, if you set arekk on fire and give him -30 hp, b4nny's win rate jumps significantly. Maybe it's just a whim and a coincidence, but if you're going to call the scorch shot a "bad weapon" you have no idea what pyro's ideal role is in a team.

Despite everything I just said, I'm still ambivalent towards a ban on it. If I was in the sole control of the league, I'd ban it, but I'd also ban the cleaver for very similar reasons and a lot of other items, so I'm not the best judge to go off. The main reason, though, is that I don't think there are enough teams able to truly capitalize off of it. In hyper-developed esports like LoL (think of how janna, tf, and zilean global passives got removed very early into the game's competitive lifespan) and even CSGO, smaller, guaranteed advantages are always valued more heavily than potential larger ones. And the scorch shot is very much a guaranteed advantage, just a small one. Play in HL isn't refined enough, imo, to the point where the small margins the scorch shot provide can be meaningful to the point where the "pro" of banning it is greater than the perceived "con" of simply banning a weapon. It's annoying, and I don't think it adds anything to the game, but it's enough of an active problem yet.

As for the darwins, 100% ban it. There's no reason it needs to be in the game, there's no definable reason why sniper should have a pyro counter. Flares are the one way for arguably the shortest range class in the game to counter the longest one, and in general every additional method of countering snipers makes HL that much more objectively better.
#39
when you have the top 2 players on almost every class on your team then your pyro can afford to give the little fragging power it has, for afterburn spam. I would say though that afterburn is probably more effective in 7s than HL, but I've never really played the game mode seriously.
I will always be a pyro main <3
#40
(12-20-2018, 06:22 PM)Arzt Hispanian Wrote: when you have the top 2 players on almost every class on your team then your pyro can afford to give the little fragging power it has, for afterburn spam. I would say though that afterburn is probably more effective in 7s than HL, but I've never really played the game mode seriously.

that's literally the entire point of top-down balance. Literally every single sport, traditional or not, has techniques and strategies that are only effective at the top level, because it's not until the top level that gameplay becomes refined enough to rely on small advantages. The issue with comparing HL to 7s is that you need to weigh the benefit of afterburn (which is, in a vacuum, more damaging in 7s since you have less total team health) against the flat cost of running a pyro as opposed to a heavy, engineer, sniper or spy. That's another can of worms, though, but the point remains that if you're in favor of top-down balance, a technique valid for only the best team is still a heavy consideration, regardless of whether or not it can be used by the other 99% of the league. Ryze is a champion in LoL who consistently received nerfs due to his power and presence in pro play (top .01% of the playerbase, if not smaller) despite having like a 45% win rate in solo queue, one of the worst in the game. As I said before, how strongly RGL really wants to pursue that degree of top-down balancing or deem it negligible in the grand scheme of things isn't my call.

Billy's take on scorch shot:

Billysaurus Wrote:Ok first off. Flare Gun is my favorite secondary, in Grand Finals, I was running Flare gun until I was specifically told to run the scorch shot by my team *. There were a good amount of situations in grand finals where I did not get kills I would have gotten had I run the flare gun or gotten kills slower than I would have had I been running flare gun. Flare gun has much higher potential, Scorch shot is not run for damage, it's run for support. It's support does not come from afterburn, either, it comes from the knock back. Which is available to you at all times as long as you can hit them once. Flare gun crit damage only happens if they're on fire, you knock back enemies on their first hit. The knock back also isn't even that good, but that works in its favor in team fights, where it's basically a half second bind which you can imagine is devastated granted your teammates take advantage of it.

The major downside to the scorch shot, is that you basically have zero self defence. Against a scout rushing you (very common) you don't have the hail mary of 90 damage flares or a shotgun to save yourself. Same thing for defending your medic in less, but similar sense. You might not output enough damage to kill whatevers killing your medic fast enough

I also found I got more kills with the scorch shot, but that's just funky nonsense due to it being a lot easier to steal kills with the scorch shot than it is with the flare, most of those kills are not kills that wouldn't have happened without me.

So basically, if your team is lacking in damage than yeah running scorch shot is not a great idea for your team but if they're not they probably will benefit from a more supportive role that I played this season.

* I was told to run scorch shot to take out stickies, which is also a very nice little bonus scorch shot can get.


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